Atc Communication Help?
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Agree with the who-where-what? comment.
It all clicked for me when I understood the reason for providing the particular pieces of information.
So on initial contact with ATC it is logical and reasonable that they want to know the 3 things above (and what you are going to do next).
Similarly, when you understand that circuit calls are to let everybody else know where you are and what you are doing, you are no longer just learning meaningless phrases, but could actually figure out what information you need to be giving.
One of the things that really helped with my RT confidence was being told that if I made a mistake to not worry about saying 'Correction', followed by the proper phrase or information. It made me understand that mistakes were normal and expected, and took the pressure off by introducing a formal way of pausing and then getting it right.
I am certain that in the early learning stages, when flying, the question of what to say next uses up a large portion of the brain capacity which would be better off being used for trying to control the aircraft. So I think it is nice to get it sorted early, but remember that in the scheme of things fluffing your lines is a non event compared to flying the plane safely and knowing where you are.
Good luck.
It all clicked for me when I understood the reason for providing the particular pieces of information.
So on initial contact with ATC it is logical and reasonable that they want to know the 3 things above (and what you are going to do next).
Similarly, when you understand that circuit calls are to let everybody else know where you are and what you are doing, you are no longer just learning meaningless phrases, but could actually figure out what information you need to be giving.
One of the things that really helped with my RT confidence was being told that if I made a mistake to not worry about saying 'Correction', followed by the proper phrase or information. It made me understand that mistakes were normal and expected, and took the pressure off by introducing a formal way of pausing and then getting it right.
I am certain that in the early learning stages, when flying, the question of what to say next uses up a large portion of the brain capacity which would be better off being used for trying to control the aircraft. So I think it is nice to get it sorted early, but remember that in the scheme of things fluffing your lines is a non event compared to flying the plane safely and knowing where you are.
Good luck.
Join Date: May 2007
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For the avoidance of doubt, on the part of the OP and any other student reading this........
So, NOT for use while the Instructor is with you.
So, NOT for use while the Instructor is with you.
On initial contact, student pilots who are flying solo shall use the callsign prefix ‘STUDENT’
1. Once acknowledged, it will not normally be necessary for student pilots to use the prefix in subsequent transmissions until making initial contact with other ATSUs, unless they feel they are being instructed to do something with which they are unfamiliar.
1. Although intended primarily for use by ab initio students, the prefix shall also be used in other circumstances where, for example, the holder of a valid licence is returning to flying practice after a significant absence and is undergoing renewal training involving solo flight conducted as a student under the supervision of a flight instructor.
15 November 2012
1. Once acknowledged, it will not normally be necessary for student pilots to use the prefix in subsequent transmissions until making initial contact with other ATSUs, unless they feel they are being instructed to do something with which they are unfamiliar.
1. Although intended primarily for use by ab initio students, the prefix shall also be used in other circumstances where, for example, the holder of a valid licence is returning to flying practice after a significant absence and is undergoing renewal training involving solo flight conducted as a student under the supervision of a flight instructor.
15 November 2012
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Apart from CAP413, there's a GA Supplement document, which I found more useful when learning.
It can be difficult when starting on the radio, but we all were beginners once. I still cringe when I remember on my 1st or second lesson as a student asking ATC to "Say again" when he was signing off with "Squawk 7000". I couldn't hear him and didn't know what to expect, but I could hear he was very annoyed....and my instructor embarrassed.
Try to manage the workload so you're not talking when you're busy with something else, and don't be shy to say "Standby" if you're busy flying and can't process the communications at that time. I also find it easier to wait a few seconds until I'm over a landmark before calling my position, for example.
It can be difficult when starting on the radio, but we all were beginners once. I still cringe when I remember on my 1st or second lesson as a student asking ATC to "Say again" when he was signing off with "Squawk 7000". I couldn't hear him and didn't know what to expect, but I could hear he was very annoyed....and my instructor embarrassed.
Try to manage the workload so you're not talking when you're busy with something else, and don't be shy to say "Standby" if you're busy flying and can't process the communications at that time. I also find it easier to wait a few seconds until I'm over a landmark before calling my position, for example.
Join Date: Mar 2012
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It can be difficult when starting on the radio, but we all were beginners once. I still cringe when I remember on my 1st or second lesson as a student asking ATC to "Say again" when he was signing off with "Squawk 7000". I couldn't hear him and didn't know what to expect, but I could hear he was very annoyed....and my instructor embarrassed.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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My 2 cents on VATSIM
VATSIM isn't really a great tool for practising RT, everything said must be taken with a pinch of salt. This is why it's particularly bad for learning bad habits as you must be able to recognise when phraseology is incorrect. Flight simulator and VATSIM are generally terrible for VMC flying anyway, due to VATSIMs main emphasis on IMC procedures and the lack of decent VMC scenery.
I would recommend Pilotedge though, as every controller is a real world air traffic controller. It only covers the West Coast of the US though, so useless for UK students.
Homepage - PilotEdge.net
I would recommend Pilotedge though, as every controller is a real world air traffic controller. It only covers the West Coast of the US though, so useless for UK students.
Homepage - PilotEdge.net
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In the circuit
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I found it helped with the readback to print a template for the kneeboard. Now I just have some boxes to fill in arranged in the order which I will be given them, like this:
Date Taxiway Runway Cross Hold Circuit QNH QFE Wind
I just print a load of these on an A4 sheet and cross them out when used.
Where I train the tower are happy for you to sit in the corner for an hour or so and listen. I know you can't do this everywhere, but it helps to understand what everyone is doing.
Date Taxiway Runway Cross Hold Circuit QNH QFE Wind
I just print a load of these on an A4 sheet and cross them out when used.
Where I train the tower are happy for you to sit in the corner for an hour or so and listen. I know you can't do this everywhere, but it helps to understand what everyone is doing.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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'Squawk **** and pass message'
'Squawk **** and pass message'
I suspect controllers do it (hopefully a controller will be passing along here soon) when they have a fair amount of traffic, are offering a Traffic or "Basic plus" service to someone and want to identify you quickly. From my perspective (low hours pilot) it chucks a bit of a spanner in the works in that it breaks the expected flow and puts a small spike into workload.
Response Options include:
a) "Squawk ****, standby" and then pass your message when you're ready
b) provide the litany and "forget" to read back the squawk on which case the controller should ask you once again to "squawk ****"
c) Write it down, look out, set the transponder, look out/pass the message and tag the squawk onto the end.
There is a short delay in a squawk code appearing on a controller's screen so any delay you introduce is just a part of the bigger picture that LARS providers see.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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A few suggestions that helped me are:
1) Get a handheld transceiver and listen to the frequency while beside the runway...this way when people call their downwind, get cleared for landing/take-off ect you can visually see what is happening around the circuit.
2) Get a map while listening in...around my area the controllers say things like "extend your downwind to the river", "turn left at the highway", follow the railroad tracks", ect. Knowing these landmarks seem to help. Realize also the controller has an advantage in that their radar screen shows where everyone is. The pilot is in a better position than the ground observer because he knows where is when he gets an instruction from ATC.
3) While on the ground listen to all calls but when in the air only listen to what is meant for you --- this will reduce the mental workload while flying.
Hope this helps
1) Get a handheld transceiver and listen to the frequency while beside the runway...this way when people call their downwind, get cleared for landing/take-off ect you can visually see what is happening around the circuit.
2) Get a map while listening in...around my area the controllers say things like "extend your downwind to the river", "turn left at the highway", follow the railroad tracks", ect. Knowing these landmarks seem to help. Realize also the controller has an advantage in that their radar screen shows where everyone is. The pilot is in a better position than the ground observer because he knows where is when he gets an instruction from ATC.
3) While on the ground listen to all calls but when in the air only listen to what is meant for you --- this will reduce the mental workload while flying.
Hope this helps
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Thing - gash is the word I'd use. Most have no air experience at all and therefore do not appreciate workloads.
Just because you don't hear anything on frequency it doesn't mean the controller isn't maxed out too. They may have landlines to other agencies ringing, be trying to prenote another aircraft, hand over another aircraft or be working multiple frequencies at once. Asking you to do two things at once to save them time on frequency is a necessity. Remember you're not the only one they're talking to and while they are talking to you, they can't talk to anyone else, so someone somewhere is going to have to multitask!
I am a newly solo pilot so I do understand workloads at the 'sharp end' too. ATC aren't all dragons who are trying to make your life difficult.
While on the ground listen to all calls but when in the air only listen to what is meant for you --- this will reduce the mental workload while flying.
Capacity comes with experience, you'll get it in time.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
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"Who are you, where are you, what do you want?" is the right advice.
On a busy frequency, you may well get a lot of information thrown at you in reply. The secret is to deal with it before replying. If I'm flying solo, I'll write down the relevant bits, then set the transponder, then reply. ATC know I'll be doing that, so they'll expect a few seconds delay.
You will learn when to expect a load of information, and as soon as you release the PTT, you'll grab your pen to write it all down. Then you read back the relevant bits of what you've written. If you've got it wrong, ATC will correct you. If you don't read it back, they'll ask you to. It's a good idea to know what must be read back! I work on "all numbers, except the wind, and clearances" which is approximately right.
On a busy frequency, you may well get a lot of information thrown at you in reply. The secret is to deal with it before replying. If I'm flying solo, I'll write down the relevant bits, then set the transponder, then reply. ATC know I'll be doing that, so they'll expect a few seconds delay.
You will learn when to expect a load of information, and as soon as you release the PTT, you'll grab your pen to write it all down. Then you read back the relevant bits of what you've written. If you've got it wrong, ATC will correct you. If you don't read it back, they'll ask you to. It's a good idea to know what must be read back! I work on "all numbers, except the wind, and clearances" which is approximately right.
Proud.
All good advice here but it really will come with practice. Just make sure you are practicing the correct phrases.
Thing.
Im guessing that you are talking about an airport named after a county that no loger exists, near a river estuary with a suspension bridge.
This REALLY irritates me. They are generally very GA friendly and good with inexperienced students but persist with this, even though I have, over the past decade, writen to them, emailed, and discussed it on the phone.
They dont seem to realise how this non standard response to an initial call really screws up the inexperienced who expect either 'Pass your message' or 'Standby'
To be fair, I think it's mainly just the one controller who does this, but it's spreading to the others.
MJ
All good advice here but it really will come with practice. Just make sure you are practicing the correct phrases.
The one I seem to get the most is 'Squawk **** and pass message'.
Im guessing that you are talking about an airport named after a county that no loger exists, near a river estuary with a suspension bridge.
This REALLY irritates me. They are generally very GA friendly and good with inexperienced students but persist with this, even though I have, over the past decade, writen to them, emailed, and discussed it on the phone.
They dont seem to realise how this non standard response to an initial call really screws up the inexperienced who expect either 'Pass your message' or 'Standby'
To be fair, I think it's mainly just the one controller who does this, but it's spreading to the others.
MJ
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Slightly off topic, I've noticed after many years of flying overseas and now almost entirely in the UK, pilots here seem to have a extremely low opinion of the ongoing operational reliability and expected service life of their COM equipment. No matter which airfield I visit I hear an incessant stream of requests for "radio checks"
"Radio check" is required in several procedures. At my homefield it is done between glider and tugplane before each take-off.
I even seem to remember that, if your initial radio check request is not answered with "reading you 4" at least, your radio is considered unusable.
I even seem to remember that, if your initial radio check request is not answered with "reading you 4" at least, your radio is considered unusable.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I feel for your frustration, excellent advice here though regarding the three main points ...who you are, where you are, and what your intentions are. also pre-fixing any initial RT with the word "Student"
I fly mainly in the US, and the majority of the controllers (especially in busy airspace) come at you with rapid fire RT !
It used to get me well flustered at times, so much so I have actually had some not so nice exchanges with one or two of the more abrupt controllers who show little tolerance when asked to "say again"....I once said to one pretty obnoxious guy that if he tried speaking English I might understand what he wanted me to do !..not to be recommended I got the number of the tower to call once I had landed..and got my head chewed off..
Now I've learned to slow them down a little by announcing - "low time pilot" followed by the usual RT. it seems to work.
Also works on the ground at the bigger more busy airports, If I'm flying to an airport where I know that ground will have me driving all over the field to get to the GA ramp, even if I've been there before, I usually announce "unfamiliar with field, request progressive taxi please" greatly reduces workload and lets you concentrate on watching for other traffic movements around the place.
On the whole controllers on whatever continent you happen to be flying are your friend and there to help.
Good luck, your radio work will soon click into place and you will wonder what all the fuss was about.
I fly mainly in the US, and the majority of the controllers (especially in busy airspace) come at you with rapid fire RT !
It used to get me well flustered at times, so much so I have actually had some not so nice exchanges with one or two of the more abrupt controllers who show little tolerance when asked to "say again"....I once said to one pretty obnoxious guy that if he tried speaking English I might understand what he wanted me to do !..not to be recommended I got the number of the tower to call once I had landed..and got my head chewed off..
Now I've learned to slow them down a little by announcing - "low time pilot" followed by the usual RT. it seems to work.
Also works on the ground at the bigger more busy airports, If I'm flying to an airport where I know that ground will have me driving all over the field to get to the GA ramp, even if I've been there before, I usually announce "unfamiliar with field, request progressive taxi please" greatly reduces workload and lets you concentrate on watching for other traffic movements around the place.
On the whole controllers on whatever continent you happen to be flying are your friend and there to help.
Good luck, your radio work will soon click into place and you will wonder what all the fuss was about.
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I flew GA from Manchester Airport and the instructions from the GA park to the runway included a lot of "taxiway this, taxiway that, cross runway this and holding point that".
No way I could read this back so in the end I wrote down all the possible routes (only about three) and kept each one ready. As soon as I realised which route the controller was giving me I selected the page which gave me the reply together with an airport map showing me the way.
How the pilots of the large aircraft were able to make a note and response as they seemed to do always surprised me.
No way I could read this back so in the end I wrote down all the possible routes (only about three) and kept each one ready. As soon as I realised which route the controller was giving me I selected the page which gave me the reply together with an airport map showing me the way.
How the pilots of the large aircraft were able to make a note and response as they seemed to do always surprised me.