Stapleford A/G - WTF?

[tmmorris]

It was bad enough being lectured on the phone on how to join a standard circuit:

Him: circuit altitude is 1200, that's altitude, altitude...
Me: OK, thanks
Him: altitude... Altitude... Hoping at some point you will say QNH.
Me: err, yes, fine...

But to be ticked off on frequency:

Me: G-XX cross 04L.
Him: A/G service only.
Me: [counts to ten to avoid being unprofessional on the radio] Yes, we know.

was infuriating. I wasn't asking, I was telling him, and the considerable amount of other traffic, that I was crossing the active runway, FFS.

And he kept filling the frequency with more 'advice' ('04L is all grass, if you're lined up on Tarmac you are on the wrong runway' - oddly enough yes, that's exactly what the AFE plate I was looking at told me too...)

Most A/G operators are great, some give them a bad name by pretending to be ATC, but this was a whole new level of annoyingness. I doubt I'll go back.

[Dash8driver1312]

Try actually stopping off there and talking to them. Go in the clubhouse and have a tea, coffee, juice. Remember that their regular traffic are students who sometimes need a guiding hand, and out-of-towners like yourself who know everything.

And yes, keep counting to ten.

[Mach Jump]

Me: G-XX cross 04L.

Perhaps if you had said 'crossing'.....?

04L is all grass, if you are lined up on Tarmac you're on the wrong runway

Seems reasonable 'advice' to me. What was it in response to?


MJ

[tmmorris]

Perhaps. Flying from an RAF base one gets a bit obsessive about saving airtime.

And I did go for a coffee - I didn't pop in to see the radio operator as I don't think I'd have been polite...

I think what annoyed me was the assumption, without evidence, that I would fail to understand how A/G works, perhaps on the basis that I came from somewhere with full ATC.

I'm sure he is trying to be helpful, I just don't think it's working!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorry state... but there are others like him - FISOs too! It's called being unprofessional.

[student88]

The one (only?) good guy they had working in the radio room at Stapleford has left, sorely missed too. Very welcoming on the radio, professional and extremely proficient.

I think I know who you are talking about, don't worry you're not the only one. Stapleford could be a really welcoming, pleasurable GA airfield to visit but unfortunately its far from it.

[thing]

There's a place that I fly to, which is a great place so I'm not going to mention where it is but there's one guy you occasionally get on A/G and he is barely audible, he's loud enough but he mumbles like he's drunk or on medication. He then always says that he can't hear you and you must have something wrong with your radio in quite an abrupt manner.

Funny how the radio always works when someone else is on A/G. Why do they let these people press the transmit button?

[chevvron]

Being a retired ATCO who now does AFIS and A/G, I sometimes have to stop and think what to say on A/G. I've heard some A/G operators say 'at your discretion' to a pilot advising he was taking off or landing, while I heard a report from a Blackbushe pilot a couple of weeks ago (also ATCO Retd) where the 'Blackbushe Radio' operator (normally 'information') instructed him to 'hold position' when he advised he was lining up because another aircraft had just landed and had not yet vacated the runway.
I occasionally had cause to phone Stapleford Radio when I was controlling on Farnborough LARS North and the person who answered always sounded professional, mind you this was over 5 years ago. And bear in mind it can potentially get very busy in the Stapleford circuit with Kingairs flashing about and simulated IF training in progress.
Also bear in mind when a person passes the exams for an ROCC (Radio Operators Certificate of Competence) and it has been signed by the radio station licence holder, there is no machinery for periodically checking the ROCC holder's competence as there is with civil and military ATCOs and FISOs.

[PA28181]

An irritating, trend I find when phoning airfields for PPR or just info, is the tendency to answer the phone xxxxx airfield "Air Traffic" when I know it's A/G or FISO.

Chevvron this is particularly true of an airfield you know....

I believe an operator MUST give the actual service provided even when answering the phone..

[chevvron]

'Air Traffic' is used as a generic term for an ATSU which can mean ATC or AFIS. A/G is not an ATSU but I have to admit during my short stint as an A/G operator I did use the term.
I suppose I'll be shot at dawn now.

[airpolice]

It sounds like Stapleford have the fanny who used to do Cumbernauld Radio in the same fashion.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

An irritating, trend I find when phoning airfields for PPR or just info, is the tendency to answer the phone xxxxx airfield "Air Traffic" when I know it's A/G or FISO.

Don't care, so long as they say something that makes it clear I've actually got through to someone who knows something about aeroplanes, rather than the catering manager or car park attendant or security guard.

[Steevo25]

My aircraft is based at Stapleford and I must admit I have never heard anything on the radio that I would consider rude or insulting. The circuit at Stapleford can be a little bit challenging if you have never flown there before. The 04 circuit especially. The whole circuit is awash with noise abatement that keeps expanding. I have sat around and heard how many calls come in from the general public every day due to complaints of aircrafts not following the agreed circuit pattern. They do get their fair share of complaints. Also, 90% of the people that are talking to A/G are students at various stages of PPL and beyond.

I am not defending A/G but of the few, out of the ordinary, RT conversations I have heard, there has always been a reason. It is not actually a standard circuit as such, especially on 04L. Overhead joins are at 1800feet rather than 2200feet as you would usually expect. When departing 04 it is a long circuit with lots of places to avoid. There is even a longer circuit for twins. Crossing 04 is usually used at Stapleford on the ground not usually in the air. You usually join crosswind 04 if you are coming from the east.

I suppose I can't really comment as I don't know the whole scenario, but in the 2 years I have had my aircraft there and the year or so before doing my training I can honestly say I have never been upset by A/G.

[OhNoCB]

Chevvron (or someone else who knows more than I), is it improper for an A/G operator to state "at your discretion"? I used to do A/G at a local airfield and occasionally we got pilots visiting who either forgot we were A/G or didn't know the difference and would ask for taxi clearance or even take off clearance. I used to just reply "at your discretion" because it seemed more appropriate than beginning a lesson over the radio as to why they shouldn't be asking. I would never say it to an aircraft who stated that he was "taking off" or "rolling", only the ones who requested it.

[ABZ777]

It sounds like Stapleford have the fanny who used to do Cumbernauld Radio in the same fashion.

I suspect the same guy on Cumbernauld Radio was on when I landed at Cumbernauld one day a couple of years ago. After "runway vacated" I was given taxi instructions to park on the Alpha apron, despite being advised previously that visiting aircraft were to park on the Charlie apron. I taxied to the A as per his instructions, squeezing down the small link between aprons A and B, to then be humiliated over the frequency with "G-XX can I ask what on earth you are doing?". I replied "parking on A as advised, G-XX".

I took this up with him in the tower when paying the landing fee, but he argued that he meant the C apron in the most unprofessional manner. I haven't been back since.

[dagowly]

Only a FISO or Manned air traffic service can give a discretionary. A/G should not. I've come across too many cowboys on the RT both as a current ATCO and recreational flying perspective. Easiest thing to do is remind them of their responsibilities because as soon as they start sequencing, they become liable should an incident occur. If you really aren't happy with the service, put a complaint into the CAA or airfield operator.

[mad_jock]

You should have just told him go travel with sex involved ya fanny.

People like that need told they are a fanny otherwise they go through life not knowing.

Just CHIRP it.

Subject: Stapleford A/G being a fanny.

[chevvron]

CAP 452 specifically instructs A/G operators NOT to use the phrase 'at your discretion'; the correct reply to someone who states they are ready for departure etc is either 'roger, no known traffic to affect' or 'traffic is.........'.

[fireflybob]

This seems to be a perennial problem with various A/Gs, exacerbated at times by some pilots who seem to be quite oblivious about the status of the different levels of "service".

the correct reply to someone who states they are ready for departure etc is either 'roger, no known traffic to affect' or 'traffic is.........'.

chevron, thanks for the quote - am surprised the latter phrase is not "reported traffic is...." etc.

At a field not too far from here I listen to certain A/Gs operators confidently saying phrases like "one downwind and one joining" - how do they know there are no non radio joining and/or someone busting the ATZ? As has been previously said the A/G operator may be laying themselves open to litigation in the event of an accident.

Then again you hear some pilots asking an A/G for "joining instructions" but an A/G is not entitled to give instructions etc.

Then there are the pilots (usually visitors) who ask questions like "Am I clear to join left base" and seem to have little idea how to conduct an "overhead" join.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

phrases like "one downwind and one joining" - how do they know there are no non radio joining and/or someone busting the ATZ?

Same applies whatever the level of service - they can only tell you what they know, and pilots realise this. Even if they've got a radar screen in front of them it might not show an infringing low-level motorised parachute.