power on stalls - some help would be lovely!
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power on stalls - some help would be lovely!
Some background: I'm slowly plodding away at my PPL, enjoying it more than I ever thought possible.
I've got about 10 hours solo, a mixture of in the circuit and solo out to our practice area. I was bout to do my dual the solo X country before winter hit big time, so now my instructor and I are concentrating on bringing my flying up to flight test standards. it's been going really well. We do a set of airwork dual and then the next couple of lessons I go up and do them solo.
All was fine until I hit the power on stalls. I'm in a C172 and we are doing them at about 1600-1700rpm. Just straight and level stalls but we are getting a little bit of a wing drop. A problem , of course that i am making worse.
I cannot seem to stop myself putting aileron input in when recovering. Believe me I know I shouldn't be. I've seen what happens when I do. I think I almost span it once because I was stupid.
I just can't seem to physically stop myself yanking the yoke around.
My instructor thinks that i just need practice. he's done all the usually stuff like making me take my hands of the yoke completely while he stalls the plane and I just use the rudder and throttle to recover. but i just can't physically stop myself when its my turn.
Any suggestions would be great. I've picked up some really good tips about the actual physical inputs from here. My landings became much better when I sorted out my seating position , as did my steep turns. I was just hoping that someone would have a pearl of wisdom for this problem that would make everything click into place.
Thanks in advance
I've got about 10 hours solo, a mixture of in the circuit and solo out to our practice area. I was bout to do my dual the solo X country before winter hit big time, so now my instructor and I are concentrating on bringing my flying up to flight test standards. it's been going really well. We do a set of airwork dual and then the next couple of lessons I go up and do them solo.
All was fine until I hit the power on stalls. I'm in a C172 and we are doing them at about 1600-1700rpm. Just straight and level stalls but we are getting a little bit of a wing drop. A problem , of course that i am making worse.
I cannot seem to stop myself putting aileron input in when recovering. Believe me I know I shouldn't be. I've seen what happens when I do. I think I almost span it once because I was stupid.
I just can't seem to physically stop myself yanking the yoke around.
My instructor thinks that i just need practice. he's done all the usually stuff like making me take my hands of the yoke completely while he stalls the plane and I just use the rudder and throttle to recover. but i just can't physically stop myself when its my turn.
Any suggestions would be great. I've picked up some really good tips about the actual physical inputs from here. My landings became much better when I sorted out my seating position , as did my steep turns. I was just hoping that someone would have a pearl of wisdom for this problem that would make everything click into place.
Thanks in advance
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If you are getting wing drop on a Cessna, then just be aware that low wing Pipers are three times as bad...
What you need to concentrate on is not letting the nose of the plane move L or R wrt the horizon. Try to keep the nose firmly pinned to a spot on the horizon with the rudder; You will need to do quite a dance to keep it straight, but then the stall will just be a straight forward Mush.
This ensures that your conscious steering effort is directed towards your feet, and not towards your fingers.
What you need to concentrate on is not letting the nose of the plane move L or R wrt the horizon. Try to keep the nose firmly pinned to a spot on the horizon with the rudder; You will need to do quite a dance to keep it straight, but then the stall will just be a straight forward Mush.
This ensures that your conscious steering effort is directed towards your feet, and not towards your fingers.
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are you keeping the plane in the stall and trying to correct a wing drop? Or are you recovering from the stall by pushing forward on the yoke and then trying to correct the wing drop?
I think the discussion on wing washout in the book, "stick and rudder" would be helpful.
use of ailerons in modern aircraft and certain stall conditions have long been misunderstood.
I think the discussion on wing washout in the book, "stick and rudder" would be helpful.
use of ailerons in modern aircraft and certain stall conditions have long been misunderstood.
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its more likely that his instructor is gettinghim to hang in a fully developed stall with full flap with him fannying around tap dancing on the rudder pedals.
Anyone from Canada like to comment if this is even in the syllabus?
This practise got banned in Europe years ago. And the FAA are trying to stop it as well.
Anyone from Canada like to comment if this is even in the syllabus?
This practise got banned in Europe years ago. And the FAA are trying to stop it as well.
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Thanks Jock, I think that exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. I'll give it a try and will ignore the funny looks I'm getting from my office mate as I practice doing that at my desk !!
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What you doing in this stall?
In that configure in Europe the student would just recover on the stall warner sounding so you would never be in the stall and as such its just reduce AOA, power up while cleaning up in stages and pitching to climb attitude.
In that configure in Europe the student would just recover on the stall warner sounding so you would never be in the stall and as such its just reduce AOA, power up while cleaning up in stages and pitching to climb attitude.
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bit of a misunderstanding here.
He is a she for one thing!
Secondly noone is getting me to "hang in a fully developed stall with full flap with him fannying around tap dancing on the rudder pedals."
The plane stalls with some wing drop, as I recover I have a habit of yanking the yoke around to try and correct.
This doesn't help.
I'm trying to stop doing this.
<sigh, I waited almost a day before posting this because I had a suspicion the thread was going to go this way>
He is a she for one thing!
Secondly noone is getting me to "hang in a fully developed stall with full flap with him fannying around tap dancing on the rudder pedals."
The plane stalls with some wing drop, as I recover I have a habit of yanking the yoke around to try and correct.
This doesn't help.
I'm trying to stop doing this.
<sigh, I waited almost a day before posting this because I had a suspicion the thread was going to go this way>
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Thank you Lord S-M
Something else to try. These kind of suggestions are probably what I need. Physically I'm not a natural flyer, I have to pay careful attention to what I'm physically doing with my limbs in order to do what I ned to do up there.
For example once I realised that I had a habit of leaning forward in my seat when doing steep turns, I understood that this was what was making me inadvertently push the nose down.
Now I know this I make a conscious effort to relax back in my seat and my steep turns are fine.
Something else to try. These kind of suggestions are probably what I need. Physically I'm not a natural flyer, I have to pay careful attention to what I'm physically doing with my limbs in order to do what I ned to do up there.
For example once I realised that I had a habit of leaning forward in my seat when doing steep turns, I understood that this was what was making me inadvertently push the nose down.
Now I know this I make a conscious effort to relax back in my seat and my steep turns are fine.
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localflighttest
I encourage you again to read, "STICK AND RUDDER".
Once you have reduced the angle of attack below the stalling angle of attack the controls work just fine. Ailerons, when the plane is NOT stalled may be used to level the wings.
when you stall, push forward AND NOW YOU ARE NOT STALLED, things work normally now. (and even in modern planes there is something called washout which causes the inboard portion of the wing to stall first, leaving the ailerons functional. Key word modern planes. Early planes had the ailerons stall first, or that portion of the wing)
I agree with madjock that for many years it was taught to dance on the rudder pedals to level the wings while holding the plane in the stall. There is no real good reason to do this.
That your instructor is a she means nothing here. In many aviation texts, the introduction expressly indicates that he actually means he/she.
Now, you MAY be over controlling and somehow entering a secondary stall.
So, once again, at this level of flying. AT first indication of a stall, push forward (usually just a small amount, or even the term, ''relax back pressure" is used) on the control wheel and simultaneously level the wings and add full power. AVOID a secondary stall.
Do ailerons work while in non stalled flight? Yes. Using all controls for coordinated flight is key. Oh, do you use just ailerons in making a turn? No, you should be using coordinated aileron and rudder.
Again, invest in your own copy of "stick and rudder" and many of your concerns will be addressed in what is virtually the bible of airplane control
regarding leaning forward while in steep turns.
perhaps you are doing this because as you turn in a high wing plane, you were trying to see to ''clear'' the area in the direction of the turn.
I encourage you again to read, "STICK AND RUDDER".
Once you have reduced the angle of attack below the stalling angle of attack the controls work just fine. Ailerons, when the plane is NOT stalled may be used to level the wings.
when you stall, push forward AND NOW YOU ARE NOT STALLED, things work normally now. (and even in modern planes there is something called washout which causes the inboard portion of the wing to stall first, leaving the ailerons functional. Key word modern planes. Early planes had the ailerons stall first, or that portion of the wing)
I agree with madjock that for many years it was taught to dance on the rudder pedals to level the wings while holding the plane in the stall. There is no real good reason to do this.
That your instructor is a she means nothing here. In many aviation texts, the introduction expressly indicates that he actually means he/she.
Now, you MAY be over controlling and somehow entering a secondary stall.
So, once again, at this level of flying. AT first indication of a stall, push forward (usually just a small amount, or even the term, ''relax back pressure" is used) on the control wheel and simultaneously level the wings and add full power. AVOID a secondary stall.
Do ailerons work while in non stalled flight? Yes. Using all controls for coordinated flight is key. Oh, do you use just ailerons in making a turn? No, you should be using coordinated aileron and rudder.
Again, invest in your own copy of "stick and rudder" and many of your concerns will be addressed in what is virtually the bible of airplane control
For example once I realised that I had a habit of leaning forward in my seat when doing steep turns, I understood that this was what was making me inadvertently push the nose down.
perhaps you are doing this because as you turn in a high wing plane, you were trying to see to ''clear'' the area in the direction of the turn.
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power on stalls - some help would be lovely!
For training purpose I always had my students stall the aircraft completely during power on stalls and we always got a wing drop in every aircraft. It's common mistake for the first timers to apply opposite aileron to counteract the wing drop.
What I use to tell them is to hold their elbow tight against their body and use the rudder to pick up the wing while releasing the back pressure and add full power. If they kept doing it after a couple of times I used to hold my hand on the yoke and not let it turn left or right. You can tell your instructor to do the same for you until you get more comfortable with the wing drop and the habit of using the ailerons disappears.
What I use to tell them is to hold their elbow tight against their body and use the rudder to pick up the wing while releasing the back pressure and add full power. If they kept doing it after a couple of times I used to hold my hand on the yoke and not let it turn left or right. You can tell your instructor to do the same for you until you get more comfortable with the wing drop and the habit of using the ailerons disappears.
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the way my instructor got rid of this habit with me was to let him stall the aircraft with an intentional wingdrop and let me recover the wingdrop with the rudder
this helped me a lot, after doing that 5-10 times i didn't recover wing drop with ailerons anymore
hope this wil help you aswell
this helped me a lot, after doing that 5-10 times i didn't recover wing drop with ailerons anymore
hope this wil help you aswell
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Skipname and flying apple
Yes the plane is completely stalled . It has to be as part of the flight test standards and yes you get a wing drop pretty much every time ( usually quite benign but I make the problem worse)
My instructor has done all the usual that you've suggested, including having me take my hands of the yoke completely and just use the rudder. they've held the yoke so that i can't physically turn it but I still yank it around
going to try the squeeze your elbows in thing and maybe even use one hand in the centre of the yoke and see what happens
Yes the plane is completely stalled . It has to be as part of the flight test standards and yes you get a wing drop pretty much every time ( usually quite benign but I make the problem worse)
My instructor has done all the usual that you've suggested, including having me take my hands of the yoke completely and just use the rudder. they've held the yoke so that i can't physically turn it but I still yank it around
going to try the squeeze your elbows in thing and maybe even use one hand in the centre of the yoke and see what happens
I cannot seem to stop myself putting aileron input in when recovering. Believe me I know I shouldn't be. I've seen what happens when I do. I think I almost span it once because I was stupid.
I just can't seem to physically stop myself yanking the yoke around.
My instructor thinks that i just need practice.
I just can't seem to physically stop myself yanking the yoke around.
My instructor thinks that i just need practice.
I think your instructor is probably right.
Although you clearly understand that it's reducing the angle of attack (moving the control column forward) that stops the wing dropping, subconsciously you still react to a wing drop with opposite aileron.
Only repetition will train your brain to stop doing this.
Be assured that you are not being 'stupid', nor are you by any means the only one to find this difficult, but I've never taught anyone yet who didn't 'get it' eventually.
Rushing the recovery is also probably part of the problem. The stall in a C 172 is pretty benign. Break the recovery into three distinct steps and verbalized them as you do them.
Say out load " Step 1 stick forward wheel central", do it then say " Step 2 full power" then do it and then finally " step 3 straight with rudder"
Slowing things down will help you hands keep up with your brain.
Say out load " Step 1 stick forward wheel central", do it then say " Step 2 full power" then do it and then finally " step 3 straight with rudder"
Slowing things down will help you hands keep up with your brain.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 24th Feb 2014 at 23:33.
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I am surprised you can it to stall to be honest.
The one I used to fly you would run out of elevator and the airspeed would stop reading you would sort of get 300-400ft per min decent rate and that was it.
The one I used to fly you would run out of elevator and the airspeed would stop reading you would sort of get 300-400ft per min decent rate and that was it.
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BPF , you may have a point. I don't like stalls . I may well be rushing the recovery.
At least now I have a plethora of things to try. I did 7 or 8 of the buggers last lesson and still wasn't getting it.
Obviously doing the same thing over and over again wasn't working so I need to try something different.
At least now I have a plethora of things to try. I did 7 or 8 of the buggers last lesson and still wasn't getting it.
Obviously doing the same thing over and over again wasn't working so I need to try something different.