Wing down during final approach.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

My instructor taught me exactly thus way, so I guess he agreed with you

Pilots will often argue over different methods of controlling an airplane based on what they were taught...sometimes what they were taught is not always the best method to get the job done.....

......I started this thread so I am comfortable defending my method of flying the approach, flare and landing.

Lets go back in time and have a look at why we flew the way we did.

For years I flew DC3's on scheduled airline routes from northern Ontario into the arctic under the IFR rules of the time ( 1960's / 1970's ) , most of the northern landing sites in the winter were ice strips and for runway edge lights they set out flare pots which were containers with toilet paper rolls soaked in heating fuel oil.

For navigation we relied on the ADF and if we could get on top we used the astro compass for accurate heading information.

The approaches were flown using a NDB at almost all sites and our landing visibility limits were 400 feet ceiling and 1 mile vis......which could vary wildly during the approach especially if there was blowing snow at the surface.

Now just imagine the work load during the approach, why would we want to do it with crossed controls???

Flying in the Arctic we had simple rules such as don't overload yourself during critical phases of flight and don't eat the yellow snow.

So exactly as expected, you do use cross controls Chuck, yet you have enough expertise to leave the cross controlling part until late in the flare right?

Yes.

And taking into consideration that the above use of the flight controls is not black magic I am a firm believer in teaching new pilots how to comfortably perform these basic maneuvers right from the start.

Teach it right the first time always trumps trying to re-teach it.

[sapco2]

Chuck, your credentials are already established.
You're a 25,000 hour pilot and I have a mere 15,000 hours but the fact is, some of your readers/followers on this forum will have less than 250 hours.

We are both experienced instructors and I am now really intrigued to know:

What training criteria do you apply in teaching your students cross controlling during those critical seconds before touchdown? How do you explain managing drift in the flare? What practise do you give them?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

What training criteria do you apply in teaching your students cross controlling during those critical seconds before touchdown?

I teach them to use whatever control inputs that are needed based on the visual picture of the airplanes path at the moment.

How do you explain managing drift in the flare?

After the airplane is yawed to track the center line you manage drift by slipping into wind....the shorter the hold off after the flare the less need for side slip.

What practise do you give them?

I do not proceed to the next exercise until they master the exercise being learned.

As a side note:

When teaching a nose wheel only pilot how to fly a tail wheel airplane they do not get to fly until they can comfortably control the airplane on the runway with the tail in the air...stop and go....reverse runway use when able.

You're a 25,000 hour pilot

I passed that number some decades ago.

[sapco2]

So they've got 2 seconds or less to get their act together in the flare right?

Any value whatsoever in upper air-work? If not why not?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So they've got 2 seconds or less to get their act together in the flare right?

Yes that is quite possible.....but they will have a fair idea of what drift trend to expect if they are taught situational awareness.

Time is an interesting subject when examined in the learning to fly context...two seconds can be forever sometimes...

Any value whatsoever in upper air-work? If not why not?

Yes upper air-work will teach them control inputs and rate of change for each input.

However the art of directional control during the approach and landing is best taught actually doing it in various wind conditions.

[Three Thousand Rule]

Very interesting to read the dialogue of 40-50,000 hours of flying - wow.

I've a fraction of that and you guys have probably forgotten more about flying than I'll ever learn.

The crab technique is the one thing I still do just as I was taught in 1993, keep the crab on into the flare and then when you feel the sink, smartly remove it with the rudder.

I have only flown a relatively small amount of trikes, nothing complicated or hot, but it has served me well in all of them.

IIRC, my instructor was much more concerned that I recognise the sink and remove the crab smartly, than worry about drift, but I guess that fits with Chuck's comment about the later you correct, the less you need to worry about drift.

I know how to do a wing down approach (and it works just fine), but am so comfortable with the crab that I just stick with it.

Please keep the interesting posts coming gentlemen, it is a privilege to read them.

Chuck, it seems a long time since you brought a very large 4 engined prop into North Weald (or was it a Cat - or both?)

[sapco2]

Its been a very interesting discussion Chuck and I am bowing out now.

Suffice it to say, you have finally admitted every good pilot cross controls for landing in cross wind conditions.

Your students are required to get to grips with the technique without much if any practice, whilst the new breed of instructors see value in teaching cross controlling prior to the flare.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Its been a very interesting discussion Chuck and I am bowing out now.

Thank you, it takes two to produce a good discussion.

Suffice it to say, you have finally admitted every good pilot cross controls for landing in cross wind conditions

.

Just to fine tune this no where did I deny I do not use a slip in the latter part of the landing process if needed, I clearly started the thread to question why so many pilots side slip way out on final...long before the flare even.....the flare and landing just morphed into the discussion as can be expected.

Your students are required to get to grips with the technique without much if any practice, whilst the new breed of instructors see value in teaching cross controlling prior to the flare.

Yes but seeing as I introduce them to what I consider proper airplane handling techniques from the start they get all the practice they need to become competent as required for safety in every phase of flight.

Great discussion and mostly because everyone is being polite to each other.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck, it seems a long time since you brought a very large 4 engined prop into North Weald (or was it a Cat - or both?

I brought the Cat there, the one we used in the movie " Below " by Mirimax.

The two DC4"s were brought in for another movie about the Berlin airlift, but so far it has not been made....I hope they do decide to make it before I get to old to fly in it.......I said I would.

[Three Thousand Rule]

I hope they do decide to make it before I get to old to fly in it.......I said I would.

Me, too. I never met you, but Alan and John spoke of you, which is why I recognise your name on here.

[VP-F__]

a while since my last post but as far as going from crab to wing down on the approach for those that never have yet land wing down do you fly the entire trip wing down...........just asking. More seriously though by kicking off the drift just prior to touch down you end up with crossed controls anyway as you will need to put in some into wind aileron to prevent that wing lifting, secondary effects of controls etc etc

[mad_jock]

I have been waiting to say what I do because I haven't actually thought about it.

Over the last week I have concluded.

Up to about 10 knts x wind I just squeeze it off in the flare.

10-35knts I go to cross controls before the flare at 50-100ft.

The problem looking at others landing is that anything over 10 knts we just get to much drift with squeezing the crab out in the flare. And they end up landing skidding sideways. This is more noticeable landing with braking actions in the low 20's where even below 10knts the plane will skid away from the centreline.

And any float and you disappear off sideways at a rate of knots. Usually with the 20-35knt xwinds its gusting as well and you are picking your gust to touch the wheels down. Sitting with xcontrols you can just hold the attitude then let her drop when you want to.

Been fun thinking about it all. You may well be right chuck but I think I will stay with what works for me. I don't particularly think which way I am going to do it for each landing. The hands and feet just look after it. I suspect its a subconscious decision linked to if I am looking out the side window or not while in the crab

[Three Thousand Rule]

Mad Jock's post makes me realise one of the significant differences of flying for pleasure and professionally.

When a pleasure pilot, we can choose not to go with a howling cross wind component and I would rather do something else on a day like that.

Thus one of the differences in the skill level of many competent PPLs and competent ATPLs, we don't practice in those challenging conditions.

[mad_jock]

three thousand it depends what the local conditions are like where you fly.

For example where I taught PPL's the winds were reasonable most of the time ie 15-20knts weren't unusual. Thus they didn't know any different. In fact it was the still air days when you had to watch because the students just weren't used to the high ground speeds on touch down and the yaw when they took the power off.

Sending students off solo with 10knt xwind components was normal as was 20knt down the strip.

So there will be PPL's out there who regularly fly in xwinds and it being not so nice. I should imagine any PPL flying at leeds is pretty well practised at dealing with wind sheer and xwinds especially now that they shut the cross runway.

And I much prefer high winds to low viz which is just a pain in the arse but for different reasons. Highwinds to be honest is quite good fun, have to stop myself smiling when the pax can see when we are off loading.

[thing]

I don't particularly think which way I am going to do it for each landing. The hands and feet just look after it.

I always read these threads with interest and have made the comment before that we make flying sound so complicated sometimes when it's not. Flying is not difficult.

[Desert185]

With experience, anything is easy.

[glendalegoon]

hey chuck

regarding movie about berlin airlift.


I don't know anything about a new movie, but the film: "The Big Lift" was made with Montgomery Clift and Paul Douglas and was made at a time very close to the actual lift.

It is an interesting film (overlook the mushy stuff) and I am sure more accurate than anything that will be made up today with CGI and changing history.

hey thing:


playing a musical instrument is not difficult either. but playing it well IS VERY DIFFICULT and so is flying well.

[thing]

Ah well, you hit on a particular area that I know well there! I'm a professional musician/teacher and I would say playing an instrument is a damn sight harder than flying. I take your point about doing it well etc, but how well do you have to do it? I'm certainly not advocating a slack approach to flying, far from it. My own desire to be good at something makes me critical of my own flying and the desire to do it better, but if you play a bum note every man and his dog will know, if you touch down 20 ft further than you intended it may give you a 'bugger' moment but no one else will be the wiser.

[Maoraigh1]

and I would say playing an instrument is a damn sight harder than flying.

Many years ago I tried to learn to play two musical instruments. Although I had no talent for either, I never had any worries about damaging them when playing without an instructor.
(The danger was when someone else was within earshot.)

[Pace]

Wednesday this week we had hurricane conditions in the Uk with winds recorded at 108 mph in parts of the Uk.
I was flying back from Germany early evening and landed at a northern airport in winds 47 gusting 70 plus kts.
Luckily for me the winds were only 10 to 20 degrees off but far worse than the landing was the approach.
At one point I was holding 170 kts down the approach (crabbing) and the speed shot from 170 down to 120 kts exceptional conditions and not conditions that a PPL would be up in!
There was a great picture of a high wing passenger turbo prop landing at Manchester wing down with the wing inches from
Striking the runway!
We have discussed the landing bit but not what can be equally challenging and that is the approach

Pilot battles to land plane at Manchester Airport in 45mph crosswind | Mail Online

These pictures show some horrifying shots of the turboprop landing at Manchester my arrival was at an airport slightly more east than Manchester later in the dark ( he had more crosswind : ) me stronger winds in the evening but more down runway

Interesting if you look at the pictures is that he was wings level crabbing at 50 to 70 feet then went wing down albeit in a high wing turboprop

Pace