Church Fenton
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the rules are OHJ, that's what I do - before I upset anyone. So every time I pop into Sherburn, I do the full thing. My problem with it, is that if there is nobody about, at all, then why do I need to fly a complete arrival, when I could just as easy position onto final at a mile and land. I don't need to see the signal square as I've been told the runway, and it ties in with what the wind's doing, so I might as well just land. Obviously I maintain a good lookout, and listening watch, to make certain it would be safe to fly such an approach. You can clearly see from about 5 miles away any aircraft taxiing out, or holding etc, and will have built up a picture by listening as to who might be doing what. So if nobody is in the circuit, nobody is joining from anywhere else, and nobody is waiting to takeoff, then why can't I just get on the deck without adding another 3 minutes of flying time?
I think Sherburn's argument is that they wouldn't be able to change the judgement of pilots flying there, and you'd likely get a few people p*ssing others off by cutting in, and racing to get onto final. So a one size fits all approach covers them. I just think there could be some leeway, as in the real world, there doesn't seem much point doing a full overhead join when conditions, aircraft type and pilot experience/ability doesn't always warrant it.
I think Sherburn's argument is that they wouldn't be able to change the judgement of pilots flying there, and you'd likely get a few people p*ssing others off by cutting in, and racing to get onto final. So a one size fits all approach covers them. I just think there could be some leeway, as in the real world, there doesn't seem much point doing a full overhead join when conditions, aircraft type and pilot experience/ability doesn't always warrant it.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"You can clearly see from about 5 miles away any aircraft taxiing out, or holding etc". At 29 yrs, your eyes are better than mine then. :-)
PS:- Time for SkyDemon to catch up as well....
PS:- Time for SkyDemon to catch up as well....
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just loaded SD Lite and it's showing an active ATZ & MATZ on the chart but OK in the Notams? EDIT. Just looked again and the box has just appeared with the info when clicking on the ATZ but still showing the ATZ circle.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Problem with the OHJ is that it's quite possible for more than one aircraft to arrive in the overhead at the same altitude, at the same time, from different directions. Many pilots think all they need to do is to make the standard "book" calls and that is all. They believe they must be safe, because they are following the "book" procedure.
They might not be safe..... all the OHJ does is move the point of possible aircraft / aircraft conflict. Ever been in the situation where you've called "Overhead" and begun the descent only to hear another aircraft also call "Overhead" immediately afterwards? From personal experience, it quite rightly makes your hair stand on end. Is the second joining aircraft above, or below? Is he/she on the correct altimeter setting yet? Are they aware of your presence?
I've had this happen more than once in the four decades I've been flying (and instructing). Once I was supervising a PPL from the right seat when this happened. Unknown to us, another aircraft was following us very close in. The pilot had been doing so for some miles and was gaining, but made no effort to keep his distance, nor a previous call to advise other pilots of the fact that he was joining at that airfield (we had). The "overhead" call was the first call he made.
Obviously, there could also be a non-radio "joiner" up there at any time.
Maybe the OHJ protagonists would put forwards their opinion of what the "book" action is, in this instance....
The real answer is to look out, listen out, and use the radio to communicate properly, and to use your noggin, not merely "follow the book".
(And don't formate without previous agreement, in particular in the overhead!).
They might not be safe..... all the OHJ does is move the point of possible aircraft / aircraft conflict. Ever been in the situation where you've called "Overhead" and begun the descent only to hear another aircraft also call "Overhead" immediately afterwards? From personal experience, it quite rightly makes your hair stand on end. Is the second joining aircraft above, or below? Is he/she on the correct altimeter setting yet? Are they aware of your presence?
I've had this happen more than once in the four decades I've been flying (and instructing). Once I was supervising a PPL from the right seat when this happened. Unknown to us, another aircraft was following us very close in. The pilot had been doing so for some miles and was gaining, but made no effort to keep his distance, nor a previous call to advise other pilots of the fact that he was joining at that airfield (we had). The "overhead" call was the first call he made.
Obviously, there could also be a non-radio "joiner" up there at any time.
Maybe the OHJ protagonists would put forwards their opinion of what the "book" action is, in this instance....
The real answer is to look out, listen out, and use the radio to communicate properly, and to use your noggin, not merely "follow the book".
(And don't formate without previous agreement, in particular in the overhead!).
sapperkenno: can you also see the non - radio aircraft which may be joining which the A/G Operator doesn't tell you about because he doesn't know about them?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To sum up CF. The aerodrome is closed until 06/01/2014. The ATZ is deactivated until 03/03/2014 with an active aerodrome from the 6/1/2014? and the MATZ is still active during the time the airfield is closed?. Does anyone know why??? I ask this because although I live in the "sarf" I visit Sherburn regularly.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK sometimes
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fenton ATZ
Can confirm that the MATZ and ATZ are suspended until March. Two NOTAMS (one for ATZ and one for MATZ) should have been sent out in Nov/Dec, we were under the impression that had happened. It will be sorted on Monday.
The airfield is still MOD property and it is expected that the M/ATZ will be closed permanently in the Springtime (although they have tried to shut Fenton before). So far as charts are concerned AIDU will ensure the AIP is updated in due course. As to all the private documentation/flight map companies are concerned, I don't know when they will be updated, I guess when they get no reply from SATCO in their annual trawl for information.
Happy New Year, speak to some of you in the coming months on the airwaves.
A Linton ATC Member.
The airfield is still MOD property and it is expected that the M/ATZ will be closed permanently in the Springtime (although they have tried to shut Fenton before). So far as charts are concerned AIDU will ensure the AIP is updated in due course. As to all the private documentation/flight map companies are concerned, I don't know when they will be updated, I guess when they get no reply from SATCO in their annual trawl for information.
Happy New Year, speak to some of you in the coming months on the airwaves.
A Linton ATC Member.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to the AIP, a MATZ is operative when the aerodrome concerned is open. So, Church Fenton having closed, there is no active MATZ. It's normal practice to issue a NOTAM confirming this, though. However it's also normal for such NOTAMs to take quite a while to emerge (e.g. Filton).
so the idea of the American style 45 degree join does appeal to me, that's the way I join at Breighton and that's the only place I've flown into with live side joins,
Please don't do 'American style' joins at Breighton, however appealing it may be. They're not in America.
There are often non radio aircraft practicing displays on what would be the dead side, so you shouldn't overfly below 2,000' or descend on the 'dead side'. This rules out the British Standard Overhead Join as well.
The recommended join there is from Loftsome Bridge Reservoir, south of the airfield, (with the two wind turbines) at 700' QFE, directly onto a right base for 11 or directly onto a left base for 29.
Alternatively, from Sherburn, you could join 'straight in' on final for 11, or directly onto left downwind for 29 at 700'.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 2nd Feb 2014 at 22:18.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like Sherburn, we have our planes serviced there so it's a regular trip for me but it does get a bit daft at times; I've been cut up more than once. It's not unique to Sherburn but there are some cavalier attitude pilots around. It's not a big deal to wait your turn.
I'm quite excited at the thought of seeing it from 2,000' actually.
I'm quite excited at the thought of seeing it from 2,000' actually.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Castleford
Age: 39
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evening Mach Jump, I've never done the kind of join I described, I just appreciate its simplicity. I daren't do anything away from the norm or what I'm meant to do! Thinking about it, I'm slightly boring!!!!
Cheers, Jim
Cheers, Jim
They might not be safe..... all the OHJ does is move the point of possible aircraft / aircraft conflict. Ever been in the situation where you've called "Overhead" and begun the descent only to hear another aircraft also call "Overhead" immediately afterwards? From personal experience, it quite rightly makes your hair stand on end. Is the second joining aircraft above, or below? Is he/she on the correct altimeter setting yet? Are they aware of your presence?
I don't see the point of calling "Overhead" and then subsequently calling "Dead Side Descending" as is, I believe, shown on the CAA pic of an OHJ. You have already called for joining information (not "instructions" assuming you are talking to A/G or AFISO) with, ideally, some indication as to position for the benefit of other a/c. To my mind an overhead call can create more confusion.
That said the main thing that concerns me are those who descend on the dead side in a straight line (often parallel to the runway) rather than in a descending turn which has the benefit of a) clearing airspace below and b)a good view of the runway to look for a/c taking off and/or going around which may affect where one can intelligently fit into the traffic pattern.
