Love flying, not keen on dying :))
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wickford
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think there is anything wrong with pre-flight nerves or worrying about what could happen. For myself, it promotes that extra careful factor.
Before I started flying I had a fear of flying and heights even in a commercial airliner. I never thought I would ever do a PPL. It was only that I was bought a trial lesson as a present and realised how much I did actually like flying when I was in control.
Even now just over a year after getting my PPL, I still get the pre-flight nerves and still go through what if scenarios before I fly. For me, I feel this is a good thing and much better than jumping in an aircraft thinking that nothing will ever happen and have nothing but total confidence.
My own opinion is that generally the type of flying that I do is safe. I have had an engine failure and am still here to tell the tale. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as I expected it to be.
Everything we do in life is a risk and people die everyday from the most outrageous of things so there are 2 options. Either lock yourself away somewhere and just hope the roof doesn't cave in. Or go out and enjoy yourself while you can.
Before I started flying I had a fear of flying and heights even in a commercial airliner. I never thought I would ever do a PPL. It was only that I was bought a trial lesson as a present and realised how much I did actually like flying when I was in control.
Even now just over a year after getting my PPL, I still get the pre-flight nerves and still go through what if scenarios before I fly. For me, I feel this is a good thing and much better than jumping in an aircraft thinking that nothing will ever happen and have nothing but total confidence.
My own opinion is that generally the type of flying that I do is safe. I have had an engine failure and am still here to tell the tale. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as I expected it to be.
Everything we do in life is a risk and people die everyday from the most outrageous of things so there are 2 options. Either lock yourself away somewhere and just hope the roof doesn't cave in. Or go out and enjoy yourself while you can.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Riding a motorcycle is not, of itself, dangerous....sharing an environment with a load of unaware, incompetent, minimally trained motorists is the killer.
Pilots are trained to a much higher standard of competency, though there are many who learn to jump through the hoops without really understanding much in depth.....It's a lot safer up there! less crowded, better -trained,all the others have the same awarenes as you, IE...A collision could be fatal, you can't pull into a layby if the donkey stops.....
Here's where I agree with the O.P's choice...A TMG , whilst not being the fastest of flying-machines, has an excellent glide-ratio and a relatively low landing-speed. the laws of physics dictate that a low-speed landing has alower chance of death or injury, than a higher-speed arrival at Terra -firma.
I started a thread on this very subject( why aren't Motor-gliders more popular)
Generally , apart from the large wingspan and ground-handling issues which can limit small-field use, they seem to have a lot of benign characteristics which go a long way to mitigating the risks of Aviating...there again, Flexwing Microlighting would also appear to be in the "slow, safe, low wing-loading" category.
As a kid, I was walking home from Sunday-school (Church ) I turned round to call my sister and was hit from behind by a woman -learner on a motorcycle, thrown over a fence and fortunately landed on long grass. the lady wound up with her motorcycle embedded in the Church's chain-link wire-mesh fence...she was more shook up than me! that's about the time Religion and I went off in opposite directions.
First-hand experience that , sometimes, you have no control over risk.
I subsequently learned to ride a motorcycle and still walk on pavements alongside cars, motorcyclists and bicyclists..also , of course, theres the hordes of other pedestrians busy poking buttons on their I-phone thingies, who think it's MY fault I get in their way!...(hope they walk into a lamp-post and argue with that!. )
Pilots are trained to a much higher standard of competency, though there are many who learn to jump through the hoops without really understanding much in depth.....It's a lot safer up there! less crowded, better -trained,all the others have the same awarenes as you, IE...A collision could be fatal, you can't pull into a layby if the donkey stops.....
Here's where I agree with the O.P's choice...A TMG , whilst not being the fastest of flying-machines, has an excellent glide-ratio and a relatively low landing-speed. the laws of physics dictate that a low-speed landing has alower chance of death or injury, than a higher-speed arrival at Terra -firma.
I started a thread on this very subject( why aren't Motor-gliders more popular)
Generally , apart from the large wingspan and ground-handling issues which can limit small-field use, they seem to have a lot of benign characteristics which go a long way to mitigating the risks of Aviating...there again, Flexwing Microlighting would also appear to be in the "slow, safe, low wing-loading" category.
As a kid, I was walking home from Sunday-school (Church ) I turned round to call my sister and was hit from behind by a woman -learner on a motorcycle, thrown over a fence and fortunately landed on long grass. the lady wound up with her motorcycle embedded in the Church's chain-link wire-mesh fence...she was more shook up than me! that's about the time Religion and I went off in opposite directions.
First-hand experience that , sometimes, you have no control over risk.
I subsequently learned to ride a motorcycle and still walk on pavements alongside cars, motorcyclists and bicyclists..also , of course, theres the hordes of other pedestrians busy poking buttons on their I-phone thingies, who think it's MY fault I get in their way!...(hope they walk into a lamp-post and argue with that!. )
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not trying to be cruel here but I suggest you find some way to get over your anxiety first. Worrying about leaving your kids as orphans etc you are going to spend your life in a state of fear. Comparing flying with motorcycling or any other activity is skirting round the issue.There is a book "The Killing Zone" which describes what kills pilots & by far most things that kill pilots are the pilot, flying into bad weather when it could be avoided, over estimating his ability to perform manoeuvres, taking off with not enough fuel etc. These "accidents" all happen in the first few hundred (2--300) hours of a pilots flying career.
I personally am right in the middle of this killing zone with 200+ hours.
If you insist on removing all risk to your kids becoming orphaned your only choice is to join the local embroidery club or sit on a canal bank drowning worms!
I personally am right in the middle of this killing zone with 200+ hours.
If you insist on removing all risk to your kids becoming orphaned your only choice is to join the local embroidery club or sit on a canal bank drowning worms!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lestah
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Suggest the OP thinks talks direct to a local flying school or club. For instance, come the day a solo is required, will you take it?
I see students drop out at that point or just beyond when the realities of flying hit home based around this kind of topic. That is not a criticism, just the way it is. Flying is not for the faint hearted and the anxst comes from knowing the likely outcome of various undesirable scenarios. I don't think the aircraft type makes any difference.
If you are of a nervous disposition and need guarantees, then maybe this is not for you.
I see students drop out at that point or just beyond when the realities of flying hit home based around this kind of topic. That is not a criticism, just the way it is. Flying is not for the faint hearted and the anxst comes from knowing the likely outcome of various undesirable scenarios. I don't think the aircraft type makes any difference.
If you are of a nervous disposition and need guarantees, then maybe this is not for you.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I see students drop out at that point
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're that concerned about leaving your wife and kids behind, just ensure your insurance is firstly adequate in terms of financial support and secondly that it actually covers you, should the worst come to the worst.
I made sure my life insurance covered me for flying, if anything happens, as long as I'm not negligent, the wife and kids will be adequately provided for, then it's down to me to ensure I minimise the risks as best as possible. The question is: How far are you going to let minimising risk interfere with your fun? If you can't, you might as well stop right now.
As an example, I flew to the UK earlier this year from Hamm, crossing over via Dunkirk - Dover. On the way back, I decided to fly direct across the North Sea from Great Yarmouth to Middenzee in Holland. Now, I could have reduced my risk by flying down to Dover, across to Dunkirk and back, at an altitude where, in the event of an engine failure, I would have been able to glide clear of the water. So why did I choose to fly direct across the North Sea? Because I wanted to. If Lindbergh can cross the Atlantic in a single engine back in 1927, I'm sure I'm reasonably safe to fly across the North Sea in a modern C172.
However a healthy portion of fear means you probably won't make the mistake of flying into poor visibility when prudence dictates you should have stayed on the ground, so enjoy your hobby....
I made sure my life insurance covered me for flying, if anything happens, as long as I'm not negligent, the wife and kids will be adequately provided for, then it's down to me to ensure I minimise the risks as best as possible. The question is: How far are you going to let minimising risk interfere with your fun? If you can't, you might as well stop right now.
As an example, I flew to the UK earlier this year from Hamm, crossing over via Dunkirk - Dover. On the way back, I decided to fly direct across the North Sea from Great Yarmouth to Middenzee in Holland. Now, I could have reduced my risk by flying down to Dover, across to Dunkirk and back, at an altitude where, in the event of an engine failure, I would have been able to glide clear of the water. So why did I choose to fly direct across the North Sea? Because I wanted to. If Lindbergh can cross the Atlantic in a single engine back in 1927, I'm sure I'm reasonably safe to fly across the North Sea in a modern C172.
However a healthy portion of fear means you probably won't make the mistake of flying into poor visibility when prudence dictates you should have stayed on the ground, so enjoy your hobby....
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
I do quite often find myself thinking, on take-off, "hey, the only way I'm going to get down on the ground alive is if I do stuff right". I never have any conscious concerns about any of the non-pilot risk factors!
I see students drop out at that point
Since then I look to fly with other pilots and ask them for their critiques, so they can tell me what I can improve, I also record the flight on a GoPro to review it later. Now, receiving honest critique means I won't argue with them when they say "you could have done that better" but instead I will listen and review that with a) my checklist and b) the video.
Anything which keeps me learning to fly safer has to be ok in my eyes....
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The risks in aviation are mitigable. You can in a way control and reduce the risks until they're as safe as commercial air travel. First of all, compared to driving, aviation doesn't depend as much on others. Meaning, that in traffic you can be ever so safe and yet be run into by some other numbnut. That risk is lower in aviation. So by not flying in bad weather, not skimping on maintenance, not running out of fuel, not doing aerobatics, not stalling, flying a reliable and slow landing plane, being well trained and current, etc, etc, you can bring the risk down to very low levels. To where it's just down to literally catastrophic mechanical failures. And I don't know what the statistics are for those, but I can tell you they're very rare.
As for anxiety, well I can tell you it goes away with experience. I used to have it, I used to get a knot in my stomach when I was driving to the airport. Took about 100hrs to get rid of. Having my own plane helped, too. I knew the maintenance and I knew what she could do. Today, I'm probably at my calmest when I fly, even calmer than sitting in traffic. Sure, there's the slight raise of blood pressure once in awhile when ATC traffic is heavy and you have multiple bogies to look out for, or when you're in really bad weather trying to get through, or when you have a mechanical malfunction. But no more than a tense scene in a thriller movie would give.
But ultimately, I fly a twin for just those reasons - to mitigate risk. I know the statistics, but for my own personal flying I don't feel safe flying singles over long stretches of water or over mountains, or night. So I put up with the extra cost of a twin to reduce this risk. It also depends on what you use the plane for. In my case it's for long cross country travel, and there I need to be able to cope with a lot of different environments. I can't always avoid mountains or water. But if you're just doing local flights to get the $100 hamburger, then all these things might be overkill and redundant.
As for anxiety, well I can tell you it goes away with experience. I used to have it, I used to get a knot in my stomach when I was driving to the airport. Took about 100hrs to get rid of. Having my own plane helped, too. I knew the maintenance and I knew what she could do. Today, I'm probably at my calmest when I fly, even calmer than sitting in traffic. Sure, there's the slight raise of blood pressure once in awhile when ATC traffic is heavy and you have multiple bogies to look out for, or when you're in really bad weather trying to get through, or when you have a mechanical malfunction. But no more than a tense scene in a thriller movie would give.
But ultimately, I fly a twin for just those reasons - to mitigate risk. I know the statistics, but for my own personal flying I don't feel safe flying singles over long stretches of water or over mountains, or night. So I put up with the extra cost of a twin to reduce this risk. It also depends on what you use the plane for. In my case it's for long cross country travel, and there I need to be able to cope with a lot of different environments. I can't always avoid mountains or water. But if you're just doing local flights to get the $100 hamburger, then all these things might be overkill and redundant.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 20th Dec 2013 at 13:52.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
after reading about your START in aviation (in places I would never like to go) dear original poster, I can see your fear.
Why not learn in a General Aviation Airplane in a First World Aviation country?
Just heard about the theatre or is it theater over there that had the roof collaspe in london.
things do happen when you do anything. people on the ground died in the lockerbie crash.
you could be sitting at home watching tv and plane falls on you...even with its engine running just fine!
dear WOMBAT...thanks for understanding about engine failures in cars vs planes. it is worrisome to read these other comments.
as you know, an airliner at 35000 feet can probably glide over 100 miles.
and even a small piper at 3000' probably has at least 3 minutes to find a place to land...THOUGH A WELL TRAINED PILOT ALWAYS HAS A FIELD IN MIND in which to land.
while I don't have the info in front of me, I can imagine a motor glider has a smaller crosswind limit, less ability on instruments and poorer ground handling, and that high aspect ratio wing would probably be worse in icing (not that you should be flying in icing).
knock on wood, but I've flown since 1975 and never had a full engine failure. flying light GA pistons, turboprops and jets.
so dear original poster, find a first rate place to learn to fly, with excellent maintenance . And numbers about certain planes can be offset by other problems.
I recall that certain super modern light GA planes have less capability to deal with lightning.
fly in very nice weather, near the home base, look for other planes and places to land all in daylight and things won't be so bad.
Why not learn in a General Aviation Airplane in a First World Aviation country?
Just heard about the theatre or is it theater over there that had the roof collaspe in london.
things do happen when you do anything. people on the ground died in the lockerbie crash.
you could be sitting at home watching tv and plane falls on you...even with its engine running just fine!
dear WOMBAT...thanks for understanding about engine failures in cars vs planes. it is worrisome to read these other comments.
as you know, an airliner at 35000 feet can probably glide over 100 miles.
and even a small piper at 3000' probably has at least 3 minutes to find a place to land...THOUGH A WELL TRAINED PILOT ALWAYS HAS A FIELD IN MIND in which to land.
while I don't have the info in front of me, I can imagine a motor glider has a smaller crosswind limit, less ability on instruments and poorer ground handling, and that high aspect ratio wing would probably be worse in icing (not that you should be flying in icing).
knock on wood, but I've flown since 1975 and never had a full engine failure. flying light GA pistons, turboprops and jets.
so dear original poster, find a first rate place to learn to fly, with excellent maintenance . And numbers about certain planes can be offset by other problems.
I recall that certain super modern light GA planes have less capability to deal with lightning.
fly in very nice weather, near the home base, look for other planes and places to land all in daylight and things won't be so bad.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....not doing aerobatics
Indeed I would go further and say that once you are happy at aeros you are a much safer VFR pilot. You will fly the aeroplane through feel and looking out, by angle of attack rather than speed, and you are most unlikely to be a stall / spin victim as you'll have been there so many times it is second nature and you'll recognise what the aeroplane is about to do even before it does it.
My own precision in flying and confidence in handling the aeroplane increased enormously once I became competant at aerobatting it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Munich, Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The risks in aviation are mitigable. You can in a way control and reduce the risks until they're as safe as commercial air travel. First of all, compared to driving, aviation doesn't depend as much on others. Meaning, that in traffic you can be ever so safe and yet be run into by some other numbnut. That risk is lower in aviation. So by not flying in bad weather, not skimping on maintenance, not running out of fuel, not doing aerobatics, not stalling, flying a reliable and slow landing plane, being well trained and current, etc, etc, you can bring the risk down to very low levels. To where it's just down to literally catastrophic mechanical failures. And I don't know what the statistics are for those, but I can tell you they're very rare.
As for anxiety, well I can tell you it goes away with experience. I used to have it, I used to get a knot in my stomach when I was driving to the airport. Took about 100hrs to get rid of. Having my own plane helped, too. I knew the maintenance and I knew what she could do. Today, I'm probably at my calmest when I fly, even calmer than sitting in traffic. Sure, there's the slight raise of blood pressure once in awhile when ATC traffic is heavy and you have multiple bogies to look out for, or when you're in really bad weather trying to get through, or when you have a mechanical malfunction. But no more than a tense scene in a thriller movie would give.
But ultimately, I fly a twin for just those reasons - to mitigate risk. I know the statistics, but for my own personal flying I don't feel safe flying singles over long stretches of water or over mountains, or night. So I put up with the extra cost of a twin to reduce this risk. It also depends on what you use the plane for. In my case it's for long cross country travel, and there I need to be able to cope with a lot of different environments. I can't always avoid mountains or water. But if you're just doing local flights to get the $100 hamburger, then all these things might be overkill and redundant.
As for anxiety, well I can tell you it goes away with experience. I used to have it, I used to get a knot in my stomach when I was driving to the airport. Took about 100hrs to get rid of. Having my own plane helped, too. I knew the maintenance and I knew what she could do. Today, I'm probably at my calmest when I fly, even calmer than sitting in traffic. Sure, there's the slight raise of blood pressure once in awhile when ATC traffic is heavy and you have multiple bogies to look out for, or when you're in really bad weather trying to get through, or when you have a mechanical malfunction. But no more than a tense scene in a thriller movie would give.
But ultimately, I fly a twin for just those reasons - to mitigate risk. I know the statistics, but for my own personal flying I don't feel safe flying singles over long stretches of water or over mountains, or night. So I put up with the extra cost of a twin to reduce this risk. It also depends on what you use the plane for. In my case it's for long cross country travel, and there I need to be able to cope with a lot of different environments. I can't always avoid mountains or water. But if you're just doing local flights to get the $100 hamburger, then all these things might be overkill and redundant.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps you couldn't be bothered to teach though.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lord spandex masher
your personality is a combative one...perhaps you should be checked for diabetes/low blood sugar
if you would like to fight, do so by private message.
as all of my students are now safe, alive and flying for fun or to earn a living, I am proud of them...and that is over 33 years plus.
I am also proud that I can spot someone who shouldn't fly...that they might harm themselves or others.
terms like idiotic...I consider the source.
have a Merry Christmas spandex man. Maybe someone will give you
a. a personality
b. flying lessons with a good instructor
c. a winning lottery ticket so you can afford both of the above.
your personality is a combative one...perhaps you should be checked for diabetes/low blood sugar
if you would like to fight, do so by private message.
as all of my students are now safe, alive and flying for fun or to earn a living, I am proud of them...and that is over 33 years plus.
I am also proud that I can spot someone who shouldn't fly...that they might harm themselves or others.
terms like idiotic...I consider the source.
have a Merry Christmas spandex man. Maybe someone will give you
a. a personality
b. flying lessons with a good instructor
c. a winning lottery ticket so you can afford both of the above.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, let's break this down.
Combative personality. No, perhaps objectionable to stupidity. It's not fighting it's discussing, what are you? A shrinking violet?
Spotting someone who can't fly. Well, not many people can until they are taught to do so. Like I pointed out, and gave an example, just because you are nervous doesn't mean you can't fly and go on to good things. Perhaps you couldn't teach, or couldn't be bothered.
Maybe someone will give me a personality. In your very first sentence you told everyone that I had a personality. Which is it?!
Combative personality. No, perhaps objectionable to stupidity. It's not fighting it's discussing, what are you? A shrinking violet?
Spotting someone who can't fly. Well, not many people can until they are taught to do so. Like I pointed out, and gave an example, just because you are nervous doesn't mean you can't fly and go on to good things. Perhaps you couldn't teach, or couldn't be bothered.
Maybe someone will give me a personality. In your very first sentence you told everyone that I had a personality. Which is it?!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Munich, Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a book "The Killing Zone" which describes what kills pilots & by far most things that kill pilots are the pilot, flying into bad weather when it could be avoided, over estimating his ability to perform manoeuvres, taking off with not enough fuel etc. These "accidents" all happen in the first few hundred (2--300) hours of a pilots flying career.
Student ppl here............ for years I contemplated learning to fly or not for various reasons , ability , cost , hazards etc , family commitments etc.
If you are dedicated to doing it get on with it , time waits for no one as I've found out , everything I contemplated has been eradicated with
excellent tuition , good aircraft maintenance , 100% confidence in the
aircraft and its systems , and full support of the other half ! at the point you go solo then you'll wonder why you ever worried about it.
Still a student - but love every minute of it , if it takes me a while to get my licence I'm not bothered ...........do it and enjoy it , I'm in no rush but
regret wasting so much time worrying about the variables.
Fly safe - you will be safe
Get on with it - you dont know what you are missing
If you are dedicated to doing it get on with it , time waits for no one as I've found out , everything I contemplated has been eradicated with
excellent tuition , good aircraft maintenance , 100% confidence in the
aircraft and its systems , and full support of the other half ! at the point you go solo then you'll wonder why you ever worried about it.
Still a student - but love every minute of it , if it takes me a while to get my licence I'm not bothered ...........do it and enjoy it , I'm in no rush but
regret wasting so much time worrying about the variables.
Fly safe - you will be safe
Get on with it - you dont know what you are missing
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
eyesup I know you have had a bad experience with microlights (and GA) in the past, but just a thought...have you considered learning in the Ikarus C42?
I ask as I am in a similar situation to you (sort of), in that I had a few GA lessons, before my wife had a freak out and now is paranoid I will crash and burn if I set foot in a small plane.
Realistically unless she's happy I think its not a great idea to fly for me as it will potentially be in the back of my mind at all times (even though I was fine in my lessons), which is very frustrating as its something I've always wanted to do.
That said, something like the C42 offers a bit of a lifeline, it has a BRS (not all do, but many have them fitted which offers reassurance for the wife) and a very low stall speed. It also offers decent performance and comfort when compared to most microlights.
Better still, you can learn with a microlight instructor, get your licence then if you really do like the aircraft buy one of your own and with some small adjustments and additional training fly the GA version (you can't learn in the GA version unless you own it due to various regulations, hence unless you are 100% sure its the right plane for you, better to do it this way)!
I ask as I am in a similar situation to you (sort of), in that I had a few GA lessons, before my wife had a freak out and now is paranoid I will crash and burn if I set foot in a small plane.
Realistically unless she's happy I think its not a great idea to fly for me as it will potentially be in the back of my mind at all times (even though I was fine in my lessons), which is very frustrating as its something I've always wanted to do.
That said, something like the C42 offers a bit of a lifeline, it has a BRS (not all do, but many have them fitted which offers reassurance for the wife) and a very low stall speed. It also offers decent performance and comfort when compared to most microlights.
Better still, you can learn with a microlight instructor, get your licence then if you really do like the aircraft buy one of your own and with some small adjustments and additional training fly the GA version (you can't learn in the GA version unless you own it due to various regulations, hence unless you are 100% sure its the right plane for you, better to do it this way)!