AIRPROX
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: England
Age: 33
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIRPROX
Now this is one thing that has always concerned me with flying VFR in uncontrolled airspace. I'm just interested to know if any of you guys have had any close calls, and what you have learnt from that experience and do differently now. I know you should scan across the windscreen on a regular basis, but are there any other suggestions or recommendations you guys have to avoiding other aircraft?
Thanks in advance
Matthew
Thanks in advance
Matthew
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1: a pair of mark 1 eyeballs (slightly used)
2: also slightly used.
3: Pray and pucker arse simultaneously.
2: also slightly used.
3: Pray and pucker arse simultaneously.
Yes, several, one I actually filed.
Solutions?
- Avoid choke points such as beacons or ILS approaches
- Listen at-least to nearby LARS controllers
- Bloody good lookout
- Squawk, with ALT
- Bloody good lookout
I'm personally unimpressed about the common advice not to fly at standard round-number altitudes, it's pretty much irrelevant as most PPLs don't fly height very accurately anyhow. On the other hand, consider on longer trips asking for clearances and flying in controlled airspace, where the risks are rather less.
If you can find a current or retired fighter pilot, ask them how they do lookout - it's almost certain to be a better method than used in most GA.
G
Solutions?
- Avoid choke points such as beacons or ILS approaches
- Listen at-least to nearby LARS controllers
- Bloody good lookout
- Squawk, with ALT
- Bloody good lookout
I'm personally unimpressed about the common advice not to fly at standard round-number altitudes, it's pretty much irrelevant as most PPLs don't fly height very accurately anyhow. On the other hand, consider on longer trips asking for clearances and flying in controlled airspace, where the risks are rather less.
If you can find a current or retired fighter pilot, ask them how they do lookout - it's almost certain to be a better method than used in most GA.
G
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 34
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stick to the right hand rule even if it adds a few minutes to your journey. I have met a few people on the other side of a line feature as they cut a corner direct to the airfield. Remember that just because you're obeying the laws of the air not everybody else is. Keep a lookout!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: England
Age: 33
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apart from regular scans of the outside world and flying at less popular altitudes e.g 2300ft as oppose to 2500ft, are there any other useful tips you guys have to avoiding other traffic in uncontrolled airspace? Any comments are much appreciated.
I spoke to a Typhoon pilot recently who said they will often fly in the open FIR. I can only assume they have some sort of TCAS system on board.
Matthew
I spoke to a Typhoon pilot recently who said they will often fly in the open FIR. I can only assume they have some sort of TCAS system on board.
Matthew
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've flown with a few ex-fighter pilots and not noticed them having a better scan method. If anything I suspect they are more used to looking where they are going as they're probably going to be more used to flying fast and low.
To improve your chances you can always fly at less busy times, and the weather is sometimes a good clue as to where you may find traffic.
To improve your chances you can always fly at less busy times, and the weather is sometimes a good clue as to where you may find traffic.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Often the problem is an autopilot! Once the autopilot is on pilots seem to think it is OK to have their total focus in the aircraft normally looking at maps or writing down details or making calculations.
i was right seat in a SEP with another pilot in the left I had my eyes down reading a Map his attention was elsewhere. I looked up just in time to see an aircraft pass directly over us in the opposite direction. it was a 172 and cannot have been more than 20 feet above us. So Close I could clearly see the tread on his tyres.
The Alarming bit was that the aircraft carried on in a straight line obviously equally unaware of us and obviously equally on autopilot doing the sunday times crossword or something else as he was totally oblivious to us.
the other near miss was in a Seneca descending through cloud IMC when a glider flashed past also in cloud and close enough to be seen in the gloom.
Pace
i was right seat in a SEP with another pilot in the left I had my eyes down reading a Map his attention was elsewhere. I looked up just in time to see an aircraft pass directly over us in the opposite direction. it was a 172 and cannot have been more than 20 feet above us. So Close I could clearly see the tread on his tyres.
The Alarming bit was that the aircraft carried on in a straight line obviously equally unaware of us and obviously equally on autopilot doing the sunday times crossword or something else as he was totally oblivious to us.
the other near miss was in a Seneca descending through cloud IMC when a glider flashed past also in cloud and close enough to be seen in the gloom.
Pace
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 431 Likes
on
227 Posts
I've filed three (about one every decade).
The closest call I had was actually during takeoff.
A glider pilot landed his glider over my aircraft (Bulldog) while my student was flying our takeoff, just before lift off. I took control and avoided his glider by the narrowest of margins, my starboard wing went over his port wingtip. I had no other option because if I'd tried to stop we would have run up the back of him.
Lookout is the best answer (and to a lesser extent listen out on the correct frequency to help build a mental picture).
The closest call I had was actually during takeoff.
A glider pilot landed his glider over my aircraft (Bulldog) while my student was flying our takeoff, just before lift off. I took control and avoided his glider by the narrowest of margins, my starboard wing went over his port wingtip. I had no other option because if I'd tried to stop we would have run up the back of him.
Lookout is the best answer (and to a lesser extent listen out on the correct frequency to help build a mental picture).
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A flying club I used to frequent had a visit to TTTE at Cottesmore, one of the things that came out of it was the appalling front view out of a Tonka, the other was that when the Tonkas were at low level in uncontrolled airspace they expected light a/c to avoid them. the message was "go high"
PM
PM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had two, one flying around a large event, should've known it would be a choke point and more people would be looking at it.
The other was a low level military jet.
In both cases I spoke to the other pilot on the phone, and their tone was very much blaming me for the airprox. Does anyone else find this? I felt in both cases we were both equally at fault, the first one I was looking into sun and the second we were just both at the same level, just bad luck.
All aircraft have blind spots, so the key for me is to keep the head moving around them.
The other was a low level military jet.
In both cases I spoke to the other pilot on the phone, and their tone was very much blaming me for the airprox. Does anyone else find this? I felt in both cases we were both equally at fault, the first one I was looking into sun and the second we were just both at the same level, just bad luck.
All aircraft have blind spots, so the key for me is to keep the head moving around them.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 431 Likes
on
227 Posts
ShyTorque,
One must wonder why you started taking off in front of a glider which had no means of going around!
One must wonder why you started taking off in front of a glider which had no means of going around!
The airfield was all short grass, It was at least 3,000 feet wide and only slightly less in length, bearing in mind the runway in use was 31. The glider could easily have landed on any of the airfield, there were three runways in all but all of the field was suitable for landing out. We were already lined up on the runway when he made his final approach, so he was behind us as we were held on the ground. He chose to land on the active runway, even though he could easily have "side-stepped" at any time and landed alongside the active runway.
If he had made a simple radio call things could have been very different. He just didn't bother. As it was, he was lucky our prop didn't split his skull from behind. A solo student probably wouldn't have been able to fly the aircraft partly off the ground and turn left away from the glider as I (only just) managed to do and certainly would not have been able to stop the aircraft.
From a fairly recent fright I have learned to worry more about the aeroplane dropping parachutists than the parachutists themselves. I can usually work out where the free fallers are likely to be but there's no way of knowing which bit of sky the pilot who dropped them is using in the rapid descent back to pick up the next lot. It is worth doing all you can to let them know where you are, especially if you are just passing by as I was.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: The Wild Blue Yonder
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’ve had 2 close calls in 2 years, both from pilots who had got the live side of the circuit wrong.
Last year, in the circuit, I’d just called downwind, and found a Piper climbing dead ahead towards me having done a PFL on the live side against the circuit direction.
Saturday just gone, I had turned down wind, and found another Piper descending left-to-right in my 10 o’clock across my path, but called “Descending deadside”. They then processed to descend to circuit height over the “Do not overfly” village inside the circuit.
Last year, in the circuit, I’d just called downwind, and found a Piper climbing dead ahead towards me having done a PFL on the live side against the circuit direction.
Saturday just gone, I had turned down wind, and found another Piper descending left-to-right in my 10 o’clock across my path, but called “Descending deadside”. They then processed to descend to circuit height over the “Do not overfly” village inside the circuit.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: nr London, UK
Age: 43
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is what I personally do:
1. Always keep a really good look out, as said by others be proactive with your scan. If flying on a clear day, be aware of empty field myopia. Obviously, make sure the windscreen and windows are clean of bugs etc. Have your eyes on stalks when in the vicinity of aerodromes and indeed choke points such as beacons, corridors/pinch points between CAS and distinct land marks/VRPs (perhaps try and avoid some of these if possible), keeping clear of ILS approaches and holds were also mentioned above.
2. Keep your ears open, build up a mental picture of where other traffic is based on position reports, especially in the vicinity of aerodromes. There is no guarantee that other pilots will be reporting their position accurately. However, you can make an effort to do so and also take extra care to follow aerodrome procedures correctly and position yourself correctly. When in the vicinity of an aerodrome and you cannot see a reporting/reported aircraft, state that you are not visual with it so that the other pilot does not assume you can see him/her. Also, make an effort with the RT, keep it accurate and concise using correct phraseology.
3. In busy airspace, get a traffic service from LARS if available. The radar controller acts as a second set of eyes watching over you, this is very helpful in busy airspace such as in the SE of England, or at least listen and use a listening squawk if available.
4. Keep your cockpit tidy and organised to minimise potential ‘head down’ time. Keep information and equipment you need to hand.
5. If equipped, always use the transponder and have mode C enabled.
6. If equipped, use strobes while airborne. Also, if reciprocal heading oncoming traffic is reported and you cannot see eachother because its murky/hazy switch on your landing lights to be more visible for a while. Don’t leave them on unnecessarily though.
7. Use TCAS or a PCAS device such as the Zaon XRX, MRX or PowerFLARM etc. I have an MRX and it works well. Be aware that these will only pick up transponding traffic and consider it as just a backup/secondary safety device. This is an area where things are evolving and ADS-B will yield new possibilities for GA in the future, I recall quite a detailed thread on here about this a short while back.
1. Always keep a really good look out, as said by others be proactive with your scan. If flying on a clear day, be aware of empty field myopia. Obviously, make sure the windscreen and windows are clean of bugs etc. Have your eyes on stalks when in the vicinity of aerodromes and indeed choke points such as beacons, corridors/pinch points between CAS and distinct land marks/VRPs (perhaps try and avoid some of these if possible), keeping clear of ILS approaches and holds were also mentioned above.
2. Keep your ears open, build up a mental picture of where other traffic is based on position reports, especially in the vicinity of aerodromes. There is no guarantee that other pilots will be reporting their position accurately. However, you can make an effort to do so and also take extra care to follow aerodrome procedures correctly and position yourself correctly. When in the vicinity of an aerodrome and you cannot see a reporting/reported aircraft, state that you are not visual with it so that the other pilot does not assume you can see him/her. Also, make an effort with the RT, keep it accurate and concise using correct phraseology.
3. In busy airspace, get a traffic service from LARS if available. The radar controller acts as a second set of eyes watching over you, this is very helpful in busy airspace such as in the SE of England, or at least listen and use a listening squawk if available.
4. Keep your cockpit tidy and organised to minimise potential ‘head down’ time. Keep information and equipment you need to hand.
5. If equipped, always use the transponder and have mode C enabled.
6. If equipped, use strobes while airborne. Also, if reciprocal heading oncoming traffic is reported and you cannot see eachother because its murky/hazy switch on your landing lights to be more visible for a while. Don’t leave them on unnecessarily though.
7. Use TCAS or a PCAS device such as the Zaon XRX, MRX or PowerFLARM etc. I have an MRX and it works well. Be aware that these will only pick up transponding traffic and consider it as just a backup/secondary safety device. This is an area where things are evolving and ADS-B will yield new possibilities for GA in the future, I recall quite a detailed thread on here about this a short while back.