why aren't Motor Gliders more popular?

[Arclite01]

I operate the Tandem Falke comfortably from 250m of Tarmac in 5 knots. Clear approaches both ends though............

The big wings are a bit of a pain ground handling and on small manoeuvering spaces but you learn to live with it. The turning circle is not the best but you learn to live with it................the extended climb rate (400ft/min) is not the best but you learn to live with it...............the fuel burn is 2.5 gallons an hour but you learn to live with it..................

WRT to comments on touring I agree with the comments about the S-10 but you don't really buy something like that to go 'touring' in the conventional sense. You 'tour' other glider sites where you fit in the traffic patterns and airfield movements with minimal problems. If I had £100K and plenty of time to use it I'd buy one tomorrow.............

Arc

[aviate1138]

A Stomme with a difference......

Not so elegant as the normal S-10

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why does looking at that picture cause me to start uncontrollably humming the theme from Thunderbirds?

G

[Arclite01]

Don't understand the point of that S-10..........other than as some sort of research ship............

Arc

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure that' s exactly what it is.

G

[cockney steve]

no, 'tis a mobile snack-bar....one appendage for slicing boiled-eggs, sandwiches for the use of,,,,,,,the other for making chips(second pass needed to convert slices to sticks).


I'm fascinated by the links and pix....several look like a normal (gp A ? ) aircraft with a slightly larger wingspan, others are very definitely the archetypal sailplane with the enormousbendy wingspan (LAK, in particular)

Am I right in assuming all these Motor Gliders require the pilot to hold a full PPL with (AIUI) a TMG endorsement?
I believe the easiest licence to obtain is a pure gliding license, then comes Microlight, followed by SEP ???

[chrisN]

No, not all. Lak FES is a sustainer and needs no licence but gliding qualification/approval in the UK (pre EASA, and within the BGA), or even no qualification at all (outside the BGA), or a sailplane pilots licence (Post EASA). We are in a transition period until April 2015, when the latter will apply.

One Lak FES ( effectively a prototype for the modification) was developed to have self launching capability, but AFAIK one cannot buy one. If one could, it would be like other self-launching sailplanes (not TMG) and would need a licence. An ordinary PPL will not do – these are too different from normal GA types or TMG’s. I am not expert enough to say what will happen post EASA/April 2015t, but I expect somebody will explain.

Chris N

[Arclite01]

In Europe

You can hold an NPPL SLMG (not technically a 'full' SSEA PPL) or a JAR PPL with a TMG rating (a full PPL). A Glider licence on its own is not sufficient to fly an SLMG or TMG.

My earlier post refers regarding what I believe is easiest system for Gllider Pilots requiring to fly any glider with an engine - the FAA system in the US.

Arc

[Arclite01]

My personal favourite at the moment is the ASK-21Mi if I win the lottery.........or maybe the ASH-25e...........

Arc

[IFMU]

Any motorglider I could afford (if I stretched my finances) is probably not going to soar any better than a Schweizer 2-33. Any motorglider that soars as well as my old 1-35C is way out of my price range.
Bryan

[Arclite01]

Bryan $17,000 - $20,000 US will get you a Tandem Falke

Hours of fun for all the family........ (well me anyway)

Arc

[PaulisHome]

If one could, it would be like other self-launching sailplanes (not TMG) and would need a licence. An ordinary PPL will not do – these are too different from normal GA types or TMG’s. I am not expert enough to say what will happen post EASA/April 2015t, but I expect somebody will explain.

I think this might actually be an area where EASA will simplify things a bit.

To fly a glider, you will need an Sailplane license (SPL) or Light Aircraft Pilot's Licence (Sailplanes) (LAPL(S)). They are pretty much the same, except for the medical requirements.

You also need to be trained in (and signed off by an instructor if you add it later) for the launch method - winch, aerotow, bungee or, (in the case being considered), Self Launch.

To fly TMGs, you need to add a TMG rating to the SPL or LAPL(S). You will also be able to add a TMG rating to a PPL or LAPL(A). So glider pilots will more easily be able to fly TMGs than they can now.

Paul

[Arclite01]

If you can find a TMG examiner.

They appear to be a rare breed in the UK...........

Arc

[A and C]

It's not so much the technical issues that put me off motor gliders but the fact that I would most likely have to keep it at a gliding club.

I can't be doing with the endless politics, back biting and ridged inforcment of petty rules that a small minority of people who don't do much flying seem to impose on gliding clubs.......... All I can say is the majority of glider pilots must really like gliding a lot to put up with all the rubbish that is involved with gliding club membership !

[Arclite01]

and the Motorglider exempts me from all of that old cobblers.

Arc

[Prop swinger]

Originally Posted by Arclite01

A Glider licence on its own is not sufficient to fly an SLMG or TMG.

No, you can fly some of the aircraft that the CAA used to refer to as SLMG on a sailplane licence.

Originally Posted by Arclite01

My earlier post refers regarding what I believe is easiest system for Gllider Pilots requiring to fly any glider with an engine - the FAA system in the US

The only remotely difficult part of the old system for BGA glider pilots was the requirement to actually hold a licence to put the rating on. The training & testing was pifflingly simple but the newly qualified pilot now had to apply for a licence. Under the FAA & now EASA systems, this piece of bureaucracy is pre-done in that you need a licence just to be a pilot.

Originally Posted by Arclite01

My personal favourite at the moment is the ASK-21Mi if I win the lottery.........or maybe the ASH-25e...........

Neither of which are TMGs. You don't need a TMG rating to fly either & once EASA rules become compulsory your TMG rating will not entitle you to fly them. (Sidenote: using an ASH-25e for the type of local soaring you like to do is a bit like using a McClaren P1 to pop down to the shops.)

Originally Posted by Arclite01

If you can find a TMG examiner.

Not a problem. All the NPPL(SLMG) instructors & examiners will transition with TMG instructor & examiner privileges on their sailplane licences. It will be a lot easier to get & maintain TMG rights on a sailplane licence than on an aeroplane licence. If your PPL(A) has an SEP rating on it you can do your biennial instructor flight in a SEP & revalidate the TMG as well, if it's a TMG only licence you will need to find a PPL(A) instructor with a TMG instructor's rating.

[chevvron]

I used to own and fly a Monnet Moni homebuilt single seat motor glider. Although it was no problem taking off (provided you remembered not to over rotate; engine was 300cc and about 30hp), landing was a bit critical as you had to 'fly' it on with no flare; if you flared, the lift decayed so quickly you would suddenly drop onto the runway and bounce! Stopping it on 800m was sometimes a bit marginal as it only had a wheel brake on the nosewheel, and that was just a hardened pad which rubbed against the tyre. The wheels were too small for it to be used on grass.
Only problem was, once you got airborne, with a sailplane like reclined seat, it would have been easy to relax and fall asleep!!

[rateone]

That is until you turn up at the average GA airfield - and find you cannot
get between the markers, cannot turn around, simply do not fit!

We have a Taifun at my field, needs three people to unfold it - I refer to it as a
Perodactyl. One person cannot actually move it when in the hangar. Virtually
needs a gale or the curvature of the earth to get airborne. Lovely when flying
and murderous on maintenance and care when not.

We also have a Grob -
which is much more practical - buit still needs a fair amount of space and has
an engine which seems quite frail. Endurance is certainly not everything.

I think you are being a little unfair Gasax. Having owned both, I think that the Taifun is the nicer aircraft and that (if both were left rigged) a Taifun is probably more practical than a Grob 109, being faster for the same fuel burn. T/O and Ldng distance for the two aircraft are about the same.

However, you are right in much of what you say.The Taifun will cruise at over 100kts burning less than 15 ltrs/hr for well over 600nm but with a low power to weight ratio take off and climb performance is not stellar - although this can be remedied by fitting an uprated engine/prop. I like the Taifun but I have to agree that it is now outclassed in performance by many of the modern generation of LAA aircraft.

TMGs all have the same problem in that by definition the wings are big (a Taifun is 17m span). As you say this is often a challenge at GA fields where marker boards can be awkward. It is also a problem in terms of hangar space. The Taifun wings fold back which cuts down on space but as you say is a pain to rig for an hour's flying. I think you will find that the Grob is just as bad if not worse.

Added to that is maintenance charges. While LAA owners can do their own thing, TMGs with a type certificate holder fall under the EASA banner. This is eased somewhat by having the BGA act as a CAMO but it still means compliance with all the EASA bulls**t.

This isn't to say the motor gliders don't have a role - the new generation of powered sailplanes are fantastic pieces of kit for exploring soaring possibilities - not great for touring though.

It comes back to the old chestnut - decide what mission capability you need and choose the best aircraft to fulfil it.

[Jim59]

If you can find a TMG examiner.

They appear to be a rare breed in the UK...........

Arc

There is a list on the BGA web site.

[Arclite01]

Hi Jim

Can you post a link ??

I'm not sure how comprehensive the old list was................

Thanks

Arc