Tiger Moth take-off technique questions
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Tiger Moth take-off technique questions
Are there any pilots with Tiger Moth experience (real, first hand experience only, please, no hear-say or flight simming) who can help me out with the following to satisfy my curiosity, please?
Is it recommendable practice to take-off from a 3-point attitude (i.e. tail skid/wheel on ground)? If so, under which circumstances would one do so? What are the advantages/disadvantages? What does the POH say?
Many thanks in advance!
Is it recommendable practice to take-off from a 3-point attitude (i.e. tail skid/wheel on ground)? If so, under which circumstances would one do so? What are the advantages/disadvantages? What does the POH say?
Many thanks in advance!
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Tiger Moth take-off technique questions
Get the tail off the ground first, then you don't have the critical angle immediately on lifting, you accelerate faster, and can see where you're going!
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Servus,
Yes, I had already imagined that for the 2-point attitude take-off. But I've just read about an experienced Tiger Moth pilot who took off in the 3-point attitude. Why would he do that?
Yes, I had already imagined that for the 2-point attitude take-off. But I've just read about an experienced Tiger Moth pilot who took off in the 3-point attitude. Why would he do that?
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Come and visit the Cambridge flying group and learn the correct methods.
Cambridge Flying Group | Home
If you cant do that find a club that will give you a tail wheel conversion course.
I have over 1000 hours in Tiger Moth, Auster and Pitts Aircraft and I have never ever taken off in the 3 point attitude with a tail wheel aeroplane.
Gently apply power, use rudder to keep it straight, stick forward to lift the tail,
Keep straight, full power lift off. As the tail come up you will need to control the swing with rudder.
***
Cambridge Flying Group | Home
If you cant do that find a club that will give you a tail wheel conversion course.
I have over 1000 hours in Tiger Moth, Auster and Pitts Aircraft and I have never ever taken off in the 3 point attitude with a tail wheel aeroplane.
Gently apply power, use rudder to keep it straight, stick forward to lift the tail,
Keep straight, full power lift off. As the tail come up you will need to control the swing with rudder.
***
I have over 1000 hours in Tiger Moth, Auster and Pitts Aircraft and I have never ever taken off in the 3 point attitude with a tail wheel aeroplane.
The one aeroplane that I've flown which a 3 point take-off did seem to work fairly well on was the G109b - but that's a very flat attitude anyhow, and it sits in ground effect until the earth curves enough to drop away underneath.
G
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I used to instruct on Tiger Moths at Cambridge and have approx 400 hours on type.
If you try and take off in the 3 point attitude you will get airborne in ground effect. There isn't sufficient thrust to overcome the drag and the aircraft will not accelerate. I've witnessed two accidents first hand where people failed to get the tail up and didn't abort the take off.....both aircraft crashed.
That said, the correct technique for all low powered tail wheel aircraft should be to raise the tail, however be cautious of propellor clearence. On higher powered types thrust can overcome drag and it is possible to take off in the 3 point attitude, however you probably won't see we're you're going and a bump (assuming you're on grass ) could get you airborne prematurely. ie below Vs.
Lastly when opening the throttle, do so progressively while maintaining directional control before moving the control column forwards.....
I hope that's of some help.
If you try and take off in the 3 point attitude you will get airborne in ground effect. There isn't sufficient thrust to overcome the drag and the aircraft will not accelerate. I've witnessed two accidents first hand where people failed to get the tail up and didn't abort the take off.....both aircraft crashed.
That said, the correct technique for all low powered tail wheel aircraft should be to raise the tail, however be cautious of propellor clearence. On higher powered types thrust can overcome drag and it is possible to take off in the 3 point attitude, however you probably won't see we're you're going and a bump (assuming you're on grass ) could get you airborne prematurely. ie below Vs.
Lastly when opening the throttle, do so progressively while maintaining directional control before moving the control column forwards.....
I hope that's of some help.
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Scion,
It was line up, stick neutral and apply power. Ground effect didn't come into it. Once airborne, just aimed for 60 knots. The instructor was a fairly big bloke, when he got out it went up like a rocket. He also demonstrated an engine start after stopping the prop. Uses a fair bit of sky.
It was line up, stick neutral and apply power. Ground effect didn't come into it. Once airborne, just aimed for 60 knots. The instructor was a fairly big bloke, when he got out it went up like a rocket. He also demonstrated an engine start after stopping the prop. Uses a fair bit of sky.
when he got out it went up like a rocket.
I also remember a very dramatic demonstration of the reality of profile drag, when I closed the throttle without lowering the nose!
I have seen someone lifting the tail too quickly and not able to control it. He tipped the aeroplane on it's nose.
Also in long wet grass this could be a problem if you raised the tail too high or even used brakes to control direction too muchyou again could be in a world of hurt.
However the thrust to drag ratio of the machine is such that for some time as the aeroplane is getting into the air the ailerons cannot be at all effective and you must be in it for the ride for a period.
do you remember any of that happening?.
Also in long wet grass this could be a problem if you raised the tail too high or even used brakes to control direction too muchyou again could be in a world of hurt.
However the thrust to drag ratio of the machine is such that for some time as the aeroplane is getting into the air the ailerons cannot be at all effective and you must be in it for the ride for a period.
do you remember any of that happening?.
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I teach on a Tiger Moth (with brakes!!) and many other tailwheel (skid??) types; I agree with all that has been said about flying off in the three point attitude. Very uncomfortable on most types and I don't see any real advantage except on perhaps some very unusual types with very limited prop clearance.
One may choose to keep the tail low to put some weight on the wings early on some types (soft ground but not a short runway) or to ensure better prop clearance. Or one may use a tail high technique (better view ahead less weight on the wings early in the roll to avoid premature bouncing airborne on bumps) when appropriate.
The beauty of such aeroplanes is that they require the pilot to understand all the actors involved, to think ahead and to adapt his technique to the particular circumstances of each take off (or landing).
Happy landings
3 Point
One may choose to keep the tail low to put some weight on the wings early on some types (soft ground but not a short runway) or to ensure better prop clearance. Or one may use a tail high technique (better view ahead less weight on the wings early in the roll to avoid premature bouncing airborne on bumps) when appropriate.
The beauty of such aeroplanes is that they require the pilot to understand all the actors involved, to think ahead and to adapt his technique to the particular circumstances of each take off (or landing).
Happy landings
3 Point
Last edited by 3 Point; 4th Nov 2013 at 08:12.
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Also an experienced Moth/Taildragger instructor, I would go with most that has been said here, i.e. get the tail up.
Re:-
Yes, be aware of it - but sit in and get someone to raise the tail with the prop full down to the point just before it touches - you may be surprised how far down the nose goes! I generally find people are over cautious raising the tail because they are scared of hitting the prop, keep it level and no problem.
Re:-
however be cautious of propellor clearence.
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A prop strike is unlikely, as Fox says. It's a bit less of an angle than getting someone to hold up the tail 'till a prop tip touches the ground, as on a take off run on a rough field the undercarriage will be flexing and the ground will be uneven; undercarriage compressed, wheels in dips in the ground, prop in line with a hump.... it will strike at the lesser angle, but probably still a lot less than you think.
I have flown a Tiger Moth but most of my t/w experience is in the Chipmunk. On that aeroplane it's surprising how hard a forward push you need to get a notable tail-high attitude on the t/o roll.
I have taken off in the Chippy 3-point, but as has been pointed out you will become airborne on the back of the drag curve. For soft field, better to get the tail up early for good acceleration then hoink it into the air early; it'll still be on the back of the drag curve but you'll get out of the mud more quickly. Then you fly just above the ground accelerating in ground effect and gradually reducing the AoA until you 'feel' the wings come to life on the front of the drag curve (easy in a Chippy - it 'talks to you' through the stick). then climb away as normal.
I don't know if the above applies to the Tiger, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't.
I have flown a Tiger Moth but most of my t/w experience is in the Chipmunk. On that aeroplane it's surprising how hard a forward push you need to get a notable tail-high attitude on the t/o roll.
I have taken off in the Chippy 3-point, but as has been pointed out you will become airborne on the back of the drag curve. For soft field, better to get the tail up early for good acceleration then hoink it into the air early; it'll still be on the back of the drag curve but you'll get out of the mud more quickly. Then you fly just above the ground accelerating in ground effect and gradually reducing the AoA until you 'feel' the wings come to life on the front of the drag curve (easy in a Chippy - it 'talks to you' through the stick). then climb away as normal.
I don't know if the above applies to the Tiger, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't.
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As a tailwheel guy, I have to agree with the majority...no three-point takeoffs, especially with underpowered airplanes. Assist the tail up (not a dramatic push on the stick) to a slightly nose high (tail low) attitude and let it fly off when it is ready. Finesse.
On the other hand driving along with the nose low waiting for the speed to build to "rotate" speed, plus more for the wife and kids, before pulling it off is not desirable either. Finesse.
I flew friend's Porterfield-Turner (looks like a J-3) with a C-65 engine. Same technique as described above. Works great.
If flying by the numbers is desired, fly a jet. Underpowered taildraggers don't need too many numbers to fly. Finesse.
On the other hand driving along with the nose low waiting for the speed to build to "rotate" speed, plus more for the wife and kids, before pulling it off is not desirable either. Finesse.
I flew friend's Porterfield-Turner (looks like a J-3) with a C-65 engine. Same technique as described above. Works great.
If flying by the numbers is desired, fly a jet. Underpowered taildraggers don't need too many numbers to fly. Finesse.
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It's a bit less of an angle than getting someone to hold up the tail 'till a prop tip touches the ground,
, as said, the ideal is to go for a level attitude,
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On the other hand driving along with the nose low waiting for the speed to build to "rotate" speed, plus more for the wife and kids, before pulling it off is not desirable either. Finesse.