Motorway Flying ...
Have you never breached the rules of the air Spanner? Have a little leniency and compassion. I guarantee you that the pilot would have learned from this flight.
Yes, he or she stuffed up, but it's better than punching up into the clouds and freezing level in a probably poorly equipped C152 with barely a pitot heater. Evidently, this pilot probably didn't have the capability or knowledge to fly in IMC.
I'd be interested to hear Flying Lawyers take on this.
Yes, he or she stuffed up, but it's better than punching up into the clouds and freezing level in a probably poorly equipped C152 with barely a pitot heater. Evidently, this pilot probably didn't have the capability or knowledge to fly in IMC.
I'd be interested to hear Flying Lawyers take on this.
Last edited by 500 above; 5th Nov 2013 at 11:34.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know this is PPRuNe, but the level of response has, to say the least, generally been disappointing.
It was hoped that there would be a sensible and balanced discussion about what was a very serious and potentially life-threatening situation (even on this amateur Forum).
This pilot, for whatever reason, not only broke a number of the Rules of the Air but, in my opinion, endangered an aircraft and its occupants.
Talk of precautionary landings and instrument approaches and other such scenarios are out of the question given the position of the aircraft and the atrocious state of the weather at the time.
I was startled by the aircraft due to it's low height above the ground and did not need to 'rubberneck' the registration as it was plain to see in my windscreen by simply moving my head!
My initial thought was for the safety of the occupants and I stopped in the motorway services within a couple of minutes of seeing the aircraft to enquire of Liverpool ATC whether an aircraft was in difficulty, not to report the pilot for low flying.
In view of the comments and criticisms I have received I consider the only way forward is to file Form FCS1520 for an Alleged Breach of Air Navigation Legislation against this pilot.
This is not a laughing matter.
I'll let the CAA be the arbiter in this case.
It was hoped that there would be a sensible and balanced discussion about what was a very serious and potentially life-threatening situation (even on this amateur Forum).
This pilot, for whatever reason, not only broke a number of the Rules of the Air but, in my opinion, endangered an aircraft and its occupants.
Talk of precautionary landings and instrument approaches and other such scenarios are out of the question given the position of the aircraft and the atrocious state of the weather at the time.
I was startled by the aircraft due to it's low height above the ground and did not need to 'rubberneck' the registration as it was plain to see in my windscreen by simply moving my head!
My initial thought was for the safety of the occupants and I stopped in the motorway services within a couple of minutes of seeing the aircraft to enquire of Liverpool ATC whether an aircraft was in difficulty, not to report the pilot for low flying.
In view of the comments and criticisms I have received I consider the only way forward is to file Form FCS1520 for an Alleged Breach of Air Navigation Legislation against this pilot.
This is not a laughing matter.
I'll let the CAA be the arbiter in this case.
If you are trying to help the pilot avoid a similar situation in the future, and given that you say you know the aircraft and where it came from, surely a quiet word with the pilot or the CFI at the airfield will achieve more than filing the form. After all, if the pilot won't listen, you can always file the form later.
My £.02 worth.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpannerInTheWerks
Quote:
On the Rump of Pendle Hill Lancashire UK
Another a**e posting on PPRuNe it seems!
The incident wasn't far from there - must be two in the area that day?!
On the Rump of Pendle Hill Lancashire UK
Another a**e posting on PPRuNe it seems!
The incident wasn't far from there - must be two in the area that day?!
Originally Posted by SpannerInTheWerks
In view of the comments and criticisms I have received I consider the only way forward is to file Form FCS1520 for an Alleged Breach of Air Navigation Legislation against this pilot.
As regards reporting people for flying IFR without the appropriate Rating, flarepilot, there can be extenuating circumstances. As an ATCO Cadet on a gin clear Winter day at Manch In '72, I listened to a fellow Controller under training give a SID (Otringham One if I remember rightly) clearance to a light aircraft. As clearances go, it was an instruction. By a moment of distraction, his Mentor missed the salient details. Probably at about 2 and a bit thousand feet and climbing generally towards Congleton, the Mentor realised what was happening and recovered the situation. Was it the PPL holder's fault for flying in Rule 22 airspace (Class A in new money) without the correct rating? The general concensus in the Tower was "no". The Watch Supervisor (Bill) did call the Stude and Mentor to one side for a quiet word.
Have you chaps considered being a Police Special (or Deputy Sheriff) or Parking Warden in your spare time?
Once upon a time in my youth I was flying from the Preston direction towards Barton and it didn't seem in the least untoward to let down to about 600 ft and look at the signs on the M61to check my position ... somewhere near Horwich I was.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Support the wrongdoer. Seems to the usual fare these days"
You have obviously made up your mind that this "criminal", which is what they will be if proved to have broken the law, is guilty before the possible trial, then that seems to be the usual fare these days........
You have obviously made up your mind that this "criminal", which is what they will be if proved to have broken the law, is guilty before the possible trial, then that seems to be the usual fare these days........
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Timbuktoo
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spanner, you've lost any support I had for you causing me to question your motive.
Faced with the pilot's options on the day would you have chosen to fly in cloud to prevent becoming a wrong doer?
BB
Faced with the pilot's options on the day would you have chosen to fly in cloud to prevent becoming a wrong doer?
BB
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
golf bravo zulu
there is quite a bit of difference between being caught in class A airspace and a mistake
and
sitting on the ground, filing an IFR flight plan WITHOUT HAVING AN INSTRUMENT RATING, then going to a plane, calling clearance delivery (aka ground) getting the clearance, then switching to tower and taking off .
one is a mistake (and shouldn't have happened) and one is an intentional act.
the pilot involved had also done other questionable things like flying under bridges.
but maybe all that stuff is ok, just youthful hijinks, right?
there is quite a bit of difference between being caught in class A airspace and a mistake
and
sitting on the ground, filing an IFR flight plan WITHOUT HAVING AN INSTRUMENT RATING, then going to a plane, calling clearance delivery (aka ground) getting the clearance, then switching to tower and taking off .
one is a mistake (and shouldn't have happened) and one is an intentional act.
the pilot involved had also done other questionable things like flying under bridges.
but maybe all that stuff is ok, just youthful hijinks, right?
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpannerInTheWerks
In view of the comments and criticisms I have received I consider the only way forward is to file Form FCS1520 for an Alleged Breach of Air Navigation Legislation against this pilot.
In view of the comments and criticisms I have received I consider the only way forward is to file Form FCS1520 for an Alleged Breach of Air Navigation Legislation against this pilot.
"because none of you think I am doing the right thing and bowing down to my superior intellect and aviaton skills, I'm going to file a report....."
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: .
Age: 36
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A worrying trend of current times is for individuals to be publicly lambasted and ridiculed on public forums, Keechbook, Tw-atter etc. by largely anonymous individuals who freely pass comment on incidents and goings on without being in posession of the full facts but instead seem to get some sort of cruel and sadistic pleasure out of publicly dragging folks' reputations through the sewers, usually accompanied with many personal insults. This achieves nothing at all.
If we witness someone doing something wrong or dangerous, not just in aviation but in life in general, then we have duty to report it through the official channels, instead of (anonymously) going onto a forum to moan and bitch about it and get all high and mighty.
Character assasination and hanging without trial (metaphorically speaking) seems to be a very 21st Century thing in Britain. Why?
Smithy
If we witness someone doing something wrong or dangerous, not just in aviation but in life in general, then we have duty to report it through the official channels, instead of (anonymously) going onto a forum to moan and bitch about it and get all high and mighty.
Character assasination and hanging without trial (metaphorically speaking) seems to be a very 21st Century thing in Britain. Why?
Smithy
I can't be the only person here with an understanding of CRM?
Some basic principles.
(1) Somebody does something wrong.
(2a) They are then criticised or punished. Result, everybody else runs for cover, recriminations surround, nobody deals with the underlying problem.
(2b) They are asked to participate in finding the solution and preventing a recurrence. Most people muck in to help, the underlying problem gets tackled.
(3a) Somebody repeats the mistake, go back to (2a) again,
(3b) Everybody knows how to avoid the mistake, hopefully it doesn't happen again.
Public accusations and recriminations are really really unhelpful because although the punitive culture makes people try hard to not mess up, they don't resolve the underlying issues that ultimately will cause somebody, somewhere, to screw up.
Hence the well known phrase on the front of AAIB's website...
G
Some basic principles.
(1) Somebody does something wrong.
(2a) They are then criticised or punished. Result, everybody else runs for cover, recriminations surround, nobody deals with the underlying problem.
(2b) They are asked to participate in finding the solution and preventing a recurrence. Most people muck in to help, the underlying problem gets tackled.
(3a) Somebody repeats the mistake, go back to (2a) again,
(3b) Everybody knows how to avoid the mistake, hopefully it doesn't happen again.
Public accusations and recriminations are really really unhelpful because although the punitive culture makes people try hard to not mess up, they don't resolve the underlying issues that ultimately will cause somebody, somewhere, to screw up.
Hence the well known phrase on the front of AAIB's website...
The purpose of the AAIB is:
To improve aviation safety by determining the causes of air accidents and serious incidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence
...It is not to apportion blame or liability.
Keith Conradi, Chief Inspector
To improve aviation safety by determining the causes of air accidents and serious incidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence
...It is not to apportion blame or liability.
Keith Conradi, Chief Inspector
