Motorway Flying ...
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Motorway Flying ...
Did Judge Dredd, spanner in the works etc. fail to eyeball the registration of said c150 at 100-250' AGL? Presumably, he was implying not only that conditions were below safe minima but that the 500' rule had also been broken. On that basis I am surprised that the registration mark would not have been clearly legible if the aircraft type ( F150J) was that obvious- I would find identifying most variants in the C150/152 line quite challenging. Having been taken on my PPL skill test in similar conditions ( having stated that actual conditions were marginal and the area forecast showing no immediate sign of improvement ) I found it to be a valuable learning experience. Whereas SITW concludes this a/c was lost and in peril, it may actually have been a very experienced IR demonstrating very challenging flight conditions in a controlled and safe manner. If it was dangerous - report it! If not, keep your eyes on the road. Safety first.
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Spanner described the aircraft as locally based in his first post. From this it would seem that he would have recognised the aircraft and therefore have known the registration. Or not.
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Pink Headsets anyone? (for those old enough to remember)
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"no nothing to do with the Pinkster herself (thought she was great), I simply meant as a challenge to the thread length - although that will probably never be beaten! "
Linky please
Linky please
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She was on a TV program a few years ago, some crap about dating on the west coast of Scotland.
There was some media rubbish going on and she begged me to delete it.
I started the thread with me as a Low hour'd FI because of a lovely but rather eccentric lady who loved all things pink wanted to have a pink headset and didn't like the normal colours. She used to fly in a skirt and camel boots, and had quite attractive legs from I can remember as well.
In the end we sent a pair of normal ones off to a motorbike helmet paint shop and got them painted pink.
She was a artistic type who lived on the west coast of Scotland and joined the thread, I bowed out on getting an airline job after about 12 months. But the thread continued for years. Some people absolutely hated it and others including some very experienced aviators seemed to love it.
She actually got to fly some very tasty hardware through ppruners and all the reports I got back were that she had a nice touch on the controls and I had done a good job teaching her ex 1-14.
But to be honest I more than likely learned more from her about instructing than she did off me about flying. Even to this day the things I learned about dealing with females in the cockpit get used regular line flying and line training.
It must be getting on for 11 years ago now.
Its properly best it doesn't get reinstated. She had had a quite ruff few years with husband dying and 2 kids to bring up and learning to fly was her way of getting out of her rut. And that thread I think as well was a bit of a therapy getting her away from her west coast community which can be quite harsh for anyone that's a bit different to the locals. I don't think it would do anyone any good bringing up old history.
I believe she is happy enough these days still living in the same place. Her boys must be grown up now but I presume she is the same as she ever was. Bloody infuriating at times and slightly scatty in what I see as a nice way but some hate.
There was some media rubbish going on and she begged me to delete it.
I started the thread with me as a Low hour'd FI because of a lovely but rather eccentric lady who loved all things pink wanted to have a pink headset and didn't like the normal colours. She used to fly in a skirt and camel boots, and had quite attractive legs from I can remember as well.
In the end we sent a pair of normal ones off to a motorbike helmet paint shop and got them painted pink.
She was a artistic type who lived on the west coast of Scotland and joined the thread, I bowed out on getting an airline job after about 12 months. But the thread continued for years. Some people absolutely hated it and others including some very experienced aviators seemed to love it.
She actually got to fly some very tasty hardware through ppruners and all the reports I got back were that she had a nice touch on the controls and I had done a good job teaching her ex 1-14.
But to be honest I more than likely learned more from her about instructing than she did off me about flying. Even to this day the things I learned about dealing with females in the cockpit get used regular line flying and line training.
It must be getting on for 11 years ago now.
Its properly best it doesn't get reinstated. She had had a quite ruff few years with husband dying and 2 kids to bring up and learning to fly was her way of getting out of her rut. And that thread I think as well was a bit of a therapy getting her away from her west coast community which can be quite harsh for anyone that's a bit different to the locals. I don't think it would do anyone any good bringing up old history.
I believe she is happy enough these days still living in the same place. Her boys must be grown up now but I presume she is the same as she ever was. Bloody infuriating at times and slightly scatty in what I see as a nice way but some hate.
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Originally Posted by Monocock
I wonder if the pilot did ever manage to get evidence like they hoped to.
Originally Posted by hotcloud
I have now received an email from a senior manager at Barton. He was able to provide the METAR'S at the time I was flying, unfortunately though he was unable to obtain a trace for the route. There are protocols to follow and my request did not meet the criteria. I am rather disappointed as the trace would have proved beyond doubt that I was on the route I described.
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Its interesting reading this thread from a noobs point of view. Without throwing any speculation out there as too who was wrong or right, its seems there are 2 *main* opinions: Break a rule, do nothing, dont tell and Report everything.
Interestingly enough, I was reading through some ATSB (aussie transport safety bureau) reports recently, and found them incredibly useful as a learner. From what I have been told, the idea is to report everything so incidents can become a useful learning tool. I have taken a great deal of information out of reading the reports myself, and some are very minor.
So help me understand here, if the OP was experienced, and thought there was a violation of air law, then my understanding is he/she should of reported it. If indeed the pilot was operating within the bounds of the law, nothing would come of it. If on the other hand, we find out that there was a problem, we could all learn from it. Isn't that the idea? OR is the reality of the situation actually a lot different?
Interestingly enough, I was reading through some ATSB (aussie transport safety bureau) reports recently, and found them incredibly useful as a learner. From what I have been told, the idea is to report everything so incidents can become a useful learning tool. I have taken a great deal of information out of reading the reports myself, and some are very minor.
So help me understand here, if the OP was experienced, and thought there was a violation of air law, then my understanding is he/she should of reported it. If indeed the pilot was operating within the bounds of the law, nothing would come of it. If on the other hand, we find out that there was a problem, we could all learn from it. Isn't that the idea? OR is the reality of the situation actually a lot different?
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I don't think anyone would disagree with that Andy, its just in this case nothing actually happened.
The MOR system in the UK allows you to report anything outside the mandatory stuff. What happens with them after that is they get classified and then filed. If its just a note something been happening the report is added to the statistics and then forgotten about.
Oban airport has filed hundreds of MOR's since the new operators took over. I haven't heard of a single pilot who has been contacted relating to any of the MOR's.
So quite a lot of people think that naming and shaming is a more effective way than reporting it. In the main nothing is ever heard again when you report things. This might be very different with your CAA. The UK one is only interested in sure fire prosecutions. Where they get to recover there costs. If there is any form of robust defence put up they won't go near it. Glass G VFR is particularly hard to prove anything because so much is in the hands of the PIC and what they can see out the window, which of course there is no way of disproving what they say. And in the absence of any evidence what they say stands. We have had people fly under bridges and claim that they had to avoid birds and get away with it in court.
Ground observations are particularly easy to disprove as the UK currently we don't have the 500ft agl version of rule 5 so even if the aircraft was below 500ft the pilot can say they were 500ft off set laterally. So to be able to get anyone you would need 3 independent witnesses that were deemed able to judge distance. For some strange reason they are deemed to be other pilots and police officers. Radar unless a special approach radar isn't accurate enough to provide evidence down to 500ft distance. So its pretty hard to prove unless they had contact with something and caused damage.
The MOR system in the UK allows you to report anything outside the mandatory stuff. What happens with them after that is they get classified and then filed. If its just a note something been happening the report is added to the statistics and then forgotten about.
Oban airport has filed hundreds of MOR's since the new operators took over. I haven't heard of a single pilot who has been contacted relating to any of the MOR's.
So quite a lot of people think that naming and shaming is a more effective way than reporting it. In the main nothing is ever heard again when you report things. This might be very different with your CAA. The UK one is only interested in sure fire prosecutions. Where they get to recover there costs. If there is any form of robust defence put up they won't go near it. Glass G VFR is particularly hard to prove anything because so much is in the hands of the PIC and what they can see out the window, which of course there is no way of disproving what they say. And in the absence of any evidence what they say stands. We have had people fly under bridges and claim that they had to avoid birds and get away with it in court.
Ground observations are particularly easy to disprove as the UK currently we don't have the 500ft agl version of rule 5 so even if the aircraft was below 500ft the pilot can say they were 500ft off set laterally. So to be able to get anyone you would need 3 independent witnesses that were deemed able to judge distance. For some strange reason they are deemed to be other pilots and police officers. Radar unless a special approach radar isn't accurate enough to provide evidence down to 500ft distance. So its pretty hard to prove unless they had contact with something and caused damage.
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What's wrong with motorway flying anyway?
That's been my primary nav aid since 1983.....
I've been saving this thread for a rainy day treat, rain's been a bit scarce last few weeks so only just got around to reading it to the bitter end..
Firstly, Spanner certainly painted himself into a corner when he appointed himself as an EXPERT observer in charge of air traffic law violations. Who could believe it when Hotcloud responded with name, rank, registration, weather reports, and detailed track of training exercise. I can think of nothing more useful to teach budding aviators than survival when flying in lowering conditions. Did Spanner ever give details of his qualifications and experience? I must have another look at his public profile....
Long long ago, l987 to be exact, I purchased a 1977 Supercub to be used for glider towing and a bit of touring. To become acquainted with this splendid steed, what better than a European tour, to Spain and back. It was not a very good idea to plan the trip for February. Talk about flying in horrible low viz conditions....it took two weeks to cover the trip from Shenington to Alicante and back. A lot of this trip was spent avoiding cathedrals. radio masts, and the occasional mountain range.
Trying to fly from LeBlanc to Le Mans, the cloudbase was getting lower and lower, and there was NO MOTORWAY available to follow...only thing down there to follow was a river. I was talking to Tours on the radio, they were leading me on up the river to their location, but I spied a small airstrip beside the river and lobbed in there, so panic over.
My previous training had been flying gliders, we spend a lot of time going around in circles at low level; its called grovelling. Being low is no big deal, and being low next to a motorway is standard. ( I know that operators of airfields (like Enstone) get bent out of shape when we are circling in their circuit, so try to avoid this behavior.)
But otherwise, the experience of getting low and staying focused and calm should be included in every pilot's training. I would be pleased and happy to fly with Hotcloud any day. Don't know about the other guy....
I've been saving this thread for a rainy day treat, rain's been a bit scarce last few weeks so only just got around to reading it to the bitter end..
Firstly, Spanner certainly painted himself into a corner when he appointed himself as an EXPERT observer in charge of air traffic law violations. Who could believe it when Hotcloud responded with name, rank, registration, weather reports, and detailed track of training exercise. I can think of nothing more useful to teach budding aviators than survival when flying in lowering conditions. Did Spanner ever give details of his qualifications and experience? I must have another look at his public profile....
Long long ago, l987 to be exact, I purchased a 1977 Supercub to be used for glider towing and a bit of touring. To become acquainted with this splendid steed, what better than a European tour, to Spain and back. It was not a very good idea to plan the trip for February. Talk about flying in horrible low viz conditions....it took two weeks to cover the trip from Shenington to Alicante and back. A lot of this trip was spent avoiding cathedrals. radio masts, and the occasional mountain range.
Trying to fly from LeBlanc to Le Mans, the cloudbase was getting lower and lower, and there was NO MOTORWAY available to follow...only thing down there to follow was a river. I was talking to Tours on the radio, they were leading me on up the river to their location, but I spied a small airstrip beside the river and lobbed in there, so panic over.
My previous training had been flying gliders, we spend a lot of time going around in circles at low level; its called grovelling. Being low is no big deal, and being low next to a motorway is standard. ( I know that operators of airfields (like Enstone) get bent out of shape when we are circling in their circuit, so try to avoid this behavior.)
But otherwise, the experience of getting low and staying focused and calm should be included in every pilot's training. I would be pleased and happy to fly with Hotcloud any day. Don't know about the other guy....
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Thanks mad_jock. A lot of acronym confusion there! I still dont really know how it works here in aus, but from what I can gather its CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) is the regulator but ATSB (Australian Transport Safety Bureau) is the investigative body. ATSB feeds data back to CASA for changes to regulation. I assume CASA will prosecute based on ATSB info ,ie, if ATSB determines that legislation has been violated.
So report an indecent to ATSB, it may or may not go anywhere. For example, I read one report about a SPL on area solo that let an aircraft roll into a lamp post (Investigation: AO-2013-128 - Collision on the ground involving a Cessna 172R, VH-IMS, at Sunshine Coast Airport, Queensland on 2 August 2013). Not going to be prosecuted, but still listed for all of us to learn from.
So report an indecent to ATSB, it may or may not go anywhere. For example, I read one report about a SPL on area solo that let an aircraft roll into a lamp post (Investigation: AO-2013-128 - Collision on the ground involving a Cessna 172R, VH-IMS, at Sunshine Coast Airport, Queensland on 2 August 2013). Not going to be prosecuted, but still listed for all of us to learn from.
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Yes rustle you can report what ever you like
Accident and Occurrence Reporting | Aircraft | Operations and Safety
Note the voluntary item.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP382.PDF gives the whole thing.
It doesn't work the way a lot of people think it does. Its not a crimestoppers system or for that matter a beating stick for bullys and sorting out differences of opinion. Its a safety statistics collection scheme.
The only reply that you going to get out of me if threatened with "I am going to file a MOR on you" is crack on mate if you want the caa to know your clueless.
Just look at the hundreds of MOR's filed about pilots at Oban. To my knowledge not a single one has been spoken to or even asked to account for their side of things.
Accident and Occurrence Reporting | Aircraft | Operations and Safety
Note the voluntary item.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP382.PDF gives the whole thing.
It doesn't work the way a lot of people think it does. Its not a crimestoppers system or for that matter a beating stick for bullys and sorting out differences of opinion. Its a safety statistics collection scheme.
The only reply that you going to get out of me if threatened with "I am going to file a MOR on you" is crack on mate if you want the caa to know your clueless.
Just look at the hundreds of MOR's filed about pilots at Oban. To my knowledge not a single one has been spoken to or even asked to account for their side of things.
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Got that MJ - I used to know a bit about the MOR system. 
It's the nomenclature that threw me, confused even on the CAA link.
In my simple mind something is either mandatory or it isn't, and in that world things mandated as reportable [CAS busts for example] would generate a "Mandatory Occurrence Report" (MOR).
However, they have come up with the wonderful:
Every day is a school day.
It's the nomenclature that threw me, confused even on the CAA link.
In my simple mind something is either mandatory or it isn't, and in that world things mandated as reportable [CAS busts for example] would generate a "Mandatory Occurrence Report" (MOR).
However, they have come up with the wonderful:
Voluntary occurrence reports are also accepted under the MOR scheme. i.e. a report not required to be reported by the legislation but which the reporter believes should be brought to the attention of the CAA because of the safety implications.
Every day is a school day.
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A CAS bust is a different form which the ATCO's use for breach of the ANO and its very rare a pilot ever see's that form and most don't know about it.
I think they just allow the voluntary stuff just so they don't have a seprate system for it.
Personally I would use chirp. MOR's are pretty useless to pilots.
I think they just allow the voluntary stuff just so they don't have a seprate system for it.
Personally I would use chirp. MOR's are pretty useless to pilots.