Life Cover for Pilots
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Life Cover for Pilots
Afternoon,
As a now 'dormant' PPL holder having fairly recently bought my first abode I took out my first life insurance policy and was asked if I did any flying, alongside numerous other death-defying hobbies. With money being tight enough to prevent me from flying in the short term I instinctively answered no.
I've since done a couple of hours (only one-offs, one with an instructor and one solo as my 'fix' I guess until I have the funds to buy a share) and came to terms with the fact that should the wings depart from the fuselage, my other half may be showered with proverbial from many angles. But hey, only a couple of hours, why add extra dosh to the hourly rate just for one-offs?
I've since been reading Flyer and have seen a couple of adverts preaching that life cover is almost impossible to obtain for a PPL holder. Is there any truth in this? I can well imagine them loading the premium like they do with people suffering from certain ailments or even for full-time flyers, but refusing to insure?
In your experience, how many of you lie or have lied about being a pilot (I'm sure I'll get an honest answer on that one
), how many of you tend to go for 'specialist' policies and those of you who received a loaded premium from a mainstream insurer, by how much (%) did your quote go up? (only really interested in PPLs/hobbyists, not full time pilots/CPLs)
On a further note, those who get insured with 'mainstream' companies, did you get asked how many hours you fly annually?
Thanks!
As a now 'dormant' PPL holder having fairly recently bought my first abode I took out my first life insurance policy and was asked if I did any flying, alongside numerous other death-defying hobbies. With money being tight enough to prevent me from flying in the short term I instinctively answered no.
I've since done a couple of hours (only one-offs, one with an instructor and one solo as my 'fix' I guess until I have the funds to buy a share) and came to terms with the fact that should the wings depart from the fuselage, my other half may be showered with proverbial from many angles. But hey, only a couple of hours, why add extra dosh to the hourly rate just for one-offs?
I've since been reading Flyer and have seen a couple of adverts preaching that life cover is almost impossible to obtain for a PPL holder. Is there any truth in this? I can well imagine them loading the premium like they do with people suffering from certain ailments or even for full-time flyers, but refusing to insure?
In your experience, how many of you lie or have lied about being a pilot (I'm sure I'll get an honest answer on that one
), how many of you tend to go for 'specialist' policies and those of you who received a loaded premium from a mainstream insurer, by how much (%) did your quote go up? (only really interested in PPLs/hobbyists, not full time pilots/CPLs)On a further note, those who get insured with 'mainstream' companies, did you get asked how many hours you fly annually?
Thanks!
Last edited by mr_rodge; 1st Nov 2013 at 13:45.
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I wouldn't worry the premium on application is based on the correct info when you took the policy out no need to keep updating the company every time your circumstances change, I asked this to my adviser and this was his reply as long as the correct info was filled in at that time your ok.
Never lie to an insurance company, to do so is to waste all your payments when you need a pay out. If they won't cover you for flying, get another company, there are insurance brokers who understand aviation and can get good deals.
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I didn't find it an issue at all. My life cover is through Stein Financial who are a broker specialising in pilot insurance, it's with a main stream provider and is not weighted at all for a declaration of 50 hours a year as a standard PPL.
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Insurance
" wouldn't worry the premium on application is based on the correct info when you took the policy out no need to keep updating the company every time your circumstances change, I asked this to my adviser and this was his reply as long as the correct info was filled in at that time your ok."
Sorry, that's just not true. For any insurance, you have to notify them if your circumstances change
Sorry, that's just not true. For any insurance, you have to notify them if your circumstances change
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I'm not interested in life cover as such but I do worry about third party cover, I think that's the right term. If I kill someone can you get cover for their family suing my family? I would be interested in a bit of that. Is it public liability cover I'm after? Can you get it as a pilot?
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In response to the main thread, Stein Financial specialise in arranging insurance products for pilots. Russ Stein, who owns the operation, is also a pilot and aircraft owner so well worth a chat as he understands things from the flyers perspective.
Dave,
With regard to your query, under EU law it is the responsibility of the aircraft owner or operator to arrange at least specified minimum levels of cover for their liability for death or injury to third parties arising out of the use of their aircraft. There are also minimum requirements in terms of passenger liability (and cargo and baggage for commercial carriage).
If you are not the aircraft owner then the best bet is to check with the owner before you fly to see what level of cover they have and that you are included as a pilot.
Cheers
Bob
Dave,
With regard to your query, under EU law it is the responsibility of the aircraft owner or operator to arrange at least specified minimum levels of cover for their liability for death or injury to third parties arising out of the use of their aircraft. There are also minimum requirements in terms of passenger liability (and cargo and baggage for commercial carriage).
If you are not the aircraft owner then the best bet is to check with the owner before you fly to see what level of cover they have and that you are included as a pilot.
Cheers
Bob
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Thanks for the reply Bob. I know the aircraft are insured as I have something to do with making sure they are. I was wondering more on the lines if I as an individual take a club aircraft out and kill or seriously hurt someone then would the family of that person have a claim against my estate? In other words could they sue me personally or is it the aircraft owner that is liable? Do I have any liability as a renter or is there a mandatory minimum level of cover that the aircraft owner has to provide? I'm at the club tomorrow so I'll have a proper look at the docs.
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Apologies for the delay in responding, I had gone off to watch a very damp firework display and have just about dried out!
It is the responsibility of the owner to ensure that there is at least the minimum liability cover in force for the operation of the aircraft. Thus if he allows you to use the aircraft as part of its normal operation then you, or your estate, would have the protection of the owners insurance cover for damages awarded to an injured third party, or their estate, at least to the limit of their cover.
Where it gets tricky is if the owner has only arranged the minimum cover and the value of the damages exceeds this. That is why it is worth making sure that the insurer has a decent limit of liability on their policy, not just the minimum.
Also check if they have arranged cover as a ‘combined single limit’ which helps ensure a better level of cover specifically for passenger liability. It still terrifies me that there are a lot of private owners out there with only a £150k odd cover per passenger for liability which would not even scratch the legal fees in the event of a serious injury claim. This is not just an excuse to generate more premium as increasing liability cover, especially on a CSL, is not that expensive.
It is the responsibility of the owner to ensure that there is at least the minimum liability cover in force for the operation of the aircraft. Thus if he allows you to use the aircraft as part of its normal operation then you, or your estate, would have the protection of the owners insurance cover for damages awarded to an injured third party, or their estate, at least to the limit of their cover.
Where it gets tricky is if the owner has only arranged the minimum cover and the value of the damages exceeds this. That is why it is worth making sure that the insurer has a decent limit of liability on their policy, not just the minimum.
Also check if they have arranged cover as a ‘combined single limit’ which helps ensure a better level of cover specifically for passenger liability. It still terrifies me that there are a lot of private owners out there with only a £150k odd cover per passenger for liability which would not even scratch the legal fees in the event of a serious injury claim. This is not just an excuse to generate more premium as increasing liability cover, especially on a CSL, is not that expensive.
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I am with Pru Protect for mine, fully covered for flying and all inheritance tax will be taken care of etc...
I got the death defying questionnaire of what i get up to etc and was honest about the flying. They then send a special extra flying questionnaire asking what types I fly, how many hours a year, where im going to take off and land (how the hell am i supposed to predict that), type of license etc etc.
I answered what i could a wrote back a multiple page letter explaining things and infact asking them questions. For example, If i had a CPL (which is seen as better than a PPL) would that make my premium less.... stupid things like that. Even went into the stats that walking along the pavement is more dangerous etc..
I have an idea to do some European micro lighting next year and according to the financial advisor, she would have to check with them because it would be a temporary thing. However more than likely there would be no change of premium.
However in all, its adding around £100 per month to the premium being a pilot..
I got the death defying questionnaire of what i get up to etc and was honest about the flying. They then send a special extra flying questionnaire asking what types I fly, how many hours a year, where im going to take off and land (how the hell am i supposed to predict that), type of license etc etc.
I answered what i could a wrote back a multiple page letter explaining things and infact asking them questions. For example, If i had a CPL (which is seen as better than a PPL) would that make my premium less.... stupid things like that. Even went into the stats that walking along the pavement is more dangerous etc..
I have an idea to do some European micro lighting next year and according to the financial advisor, she would have to check with them because it would be a temporary thing. However more than likely there would be no change of premium.
However in all, its adding around £100 per month to the premium being a pilot..
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My experience has been this:
I took up a permanent position with a company in Jan this year. In July this year I began PPL training. I informed the company of this and they conferred with the Death in Service provider, who said no problem (risk seems to be spread across the wide range of people who work for the organisation).
Then I informed the Life Company who hold my personal life insurance that I had begun training. They replied to say that there was no increase in the premium, however, if I renewed or took out a new policy with them, they might consider rating it as I would have to disclose it as part of underwriting.
Basically, my advice is advise your life company. For most existing policies it shouldn't be a problem and will save your loved ones a truckload of trouble if they have to make a claim as a result of a crash.
I took up a permanent position with a company in Jan this year. In July this year I began PPL training. I informed the company of this and they conferred with the Death in Service provider, who said no problem (risk seems to be spread across the wide range of people who work for the organisation).
Then I informed the Life Company who hold my personal life insurance that I had begun training. They replied to say that there was no increase in the premium, however, if I renewed or took out a new policy with them, they might consider rating it as I would have to disclose it as part of underwriting.
Basically, my advice is advise your life company. For most existing policies it shouldn't be a problem and will save your loved ones a truckload of trouble if they have to make a claim as a result of a crash.
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My total premium is covering roughly 850k inheritance tax bill. In total I'm paying some 300quid a month of which 100 is the extra flying protection. That's the cheapest possible for me apparently.
I think the issue here is when a company deems an activity to become a hobby/interest, being how many times you have done or expected to do the hobby.
Keep them informed, none disclosure is a horrible issue.
Dan
I think the issue here is when a company deems an activity to become a hobby/interest, being how many times you have done or expected to do the hobby.
Keep them informed, none disclosure is a horrible issue.
Dan
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Life assurance underwriting..
I thought I'd chuck in my pennies worth on this - esp as I'm involved in placement of life cover risks on a day to day basis. > and that's right across the spectrum from hang glider pilots to Boeing pilots.
It would be inappropriate to advertise my company here but the firm has been cited in a couple of postings above. I have flown many types myself since 1990 so have a good grounding...esp with the recreational side.
In relation to life assurance for Group A Pilots : Low hour PPL's or students should be able to secure standard rates ( i.e no premium loadings) for flying recreationally up to 75 hours p.a. The same applies to ab initio CPL's on integrated or modular flying courses where they are almost certain to fly >75hours in a 12 month period.
Instructors can usually get standard terms.
For more experienced PPL's ( 200hs+) standard terms are available via the right insurer to 100 hours or even 150 hours + p.a. Its a question of ensuring your broker or the insurer you are dealing with knows their stuff in relation to the underwriting philosophy for the type you fly and hours you're airborne. From experience many don't.
Of course there are exceptions like those who fly more than one type - i.e Group A + microlights , do aeros or fly extensively in far flung destinations...but even in those scenarios there can be big differences in the loadings applied ( if any).
I hope this clarifies things a bit
It would be inappropriate to advertise my company here but the firm has been cited in a couple of postings above. I have flown many types myself since 1990 so have a good grounding...esp with the recreational side.
In relation to life assurance for Group A Pilots : Low hour PPL's or students should be able to secure standard rates ( i.e no premium loadings) for flying recreationally up to 75 hours p.a. The same applies to ab initio CPL's on integrated or modular flying courses where they are almost certain to fly >75hours in a 12 month period.
Instructors can usually get standard terms.
For more experienced PPL's ( 200hs+) standard terms are available via the right insurer to 100 hours or even 150 hours + p.a. Its a question of ensuring your broker or the insurer you are dealing with knows their stuff in relation to the underwriting philosophy for the type you fly and hours you're airborne. From experience many don't.
Of course there are exceptions like those who fly more than one type - i.e Group A + microlights , do aeros or fly extensively in far flung destinations...but even in those scenarios there can be big differences in the loadings applied ( if any).
I hope this clarifies things a bit
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It has but this isn't reflected in my policy. I wish I could do say 50 hours a year atleast. Infact I clearly stated i did less than 50 hours a year on the questionnaire yet I seem to be being charged for being some airline pilot...
However, maybe at the time I did 30 hours a year from a rental company, then I won the lottery to add to my fortunes, bought my own aircraft and started to do 200 hours a year.... Then what..... Am I covered ?
End of the day, insurance companies don't want to pay out, makes you almost scared to pay over the odds to protect your loved ones.
However, maybe at the time I did 30 hours a year from a rental company, then I won the lottery to add to my fortunes, bought my own aircraft and started to do 200 hours a year.... Then what..... Am I covered ?
End of the day, insurance companies don't want to pay out, makes you almost scared to pay over the odds to protect your loved ones.
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....yep - confirms what I said - you need to get the right advice upfront !
Should you increase your hours p.a at a later point this should not affect your policy in any way. No harm in letting them know if you wish to though.
The public's scepticism of life assurance and insurers due to 'non payout' is to some extent understandable. - Although I think this is often fuelled by news stories or watchdog programmes that don't always give a balanced analysis.
You do sometimes hear stories of critical illness claims not being paid out. Its not happened in my experience but I am aware it does very occasionally occur. ( I think you'll find the industry average of declined cases is around 5 % - usually due to non disclosure which is largely avoidable)
For life cover the declined payout rate is negligible.
At the end of the day the paradox with life cover is that , when the chips are down , you actually hope it will be a waste of money - ( i.e. that no claim will ever be made ) - and there are few products which fall into that category !
Should you increase your hours p.a at a later point this should not affect your policy in any way. No harm in letting them know if you wish to though.
The public's scepticism of life assurance and insurers due to 'non payout' is to some extent understandable. - Although I think this is often fuelled by news stories or watchdog programmes that don't always give a balanced analysis.
You do sometimes hear stories of critical illness claims not being paid out. Its not happened in my experience but I am aware it does very occasionally occur. ( I think you'll find the industry average of declined cases is around 5 % - usually due to non disclosure which is largely avoidable)
For life cover the declined payout rate is negligible.
At the end of the day the paradox with life cover is that , when the chips are down , you actually hope it will be a waste of money - ( i.e. that no claim will ever be made ) - and there are few products which fall into that category !
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Aerohopper
I fly less than 100 hours a year now. There are specialist brokers out there who negotiate deals for pilots without a penalty for flying.
The problem I found was that as soon as I mentioned the medication I take, the premiums shot up. My medication is fully accepted for flying, no problems with the authorities.
I have not gone with an aviation broker for my life insurance, I have gone with one who found me the best deal based on my mediation. Adding flying increased the premium but nowhere near as much as my medication did with the others.
Bob
I fly less than 100 hours a year now. There are specialist brokers out there who negotiate deals for pilots without a penalty for flying.
The problem I found was that as soon as I mentioned the medication I take, the premiums shot up. My medication is fully accepted for flying, no problems with the authorities.
I have not gone with an aviation broker for my life insurance, I have gone with one who found me the best deal based on my mediation. Adding flying increased the premium but nowhere near as much as my medication did with the others.
Bob
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Bob
Its fair enough what you say - there are of course exceptions.
In general the majority of pilots don't have health issues - at least not ones which might affect the life premium.
In cases where health issues are relevant then, yes, there may be differences in underwriting stance between insurers. But usually this is small.
With the vast majority of pilots its the flying loading which is likely to have the biggest effect on the final premium.
I'm glad you got the best overall combination of flying and medical loadings...lets face it..it costs enough to fly our aeroplanes without any additional unwarranted costs !
Its fair enough what you say - there are of course exceptions.
In general the majority of pilots don't have health issues - at least not ones which might affect the life premium.
In cases where health issues are relevant then, yes, there may be differences in underwriting stance between insurers. But usually this is small.
With the vast majority of pilots its the flying loading which is likely to have the biggest effect on the final premium.
I'm glad you got the best overall combination of flying and medical loadings...lets face it..it costs enough to fly our aeroplanes without any additional unwarranted costs !
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Talk to Russ Stein. Nice bloke and very knowledgeable and very importantly....also a pilot!
I took out about half a million cover for me and the wife - joint policy, so if one of us bites the dust the other gets the pay out. Up to age of 65 (24 year term), flying included up to 100/150 hrs pa plus flying around in helicopters as part of my job, and the premium is about £70 per month fixed.
I took out about half a million cover for me and the wife - joint policy, so if one of us bites the dust the other gets the pay out. Up to age of 65 (24 year term), flying included up to 100/150 hrs pa plus flying around in helicopters as part of my job, and the premium is about £70 per month fixed.