Breaking news on 3rd country licences

[Pace]

Below is part of a letter from the CAA Confirming what I knew to be happening

I am writing to inform you that following a vote at an International Meeting at the European Commission held 17 October 2013, the following change to the Aircrew Regulation has been agreed on:

Extension of derogation - validation requirements for non-commercial flights
The derogation against the requirement to hold a Part-FCL licence or a European validation of a 3rd Country licence to fly 3rd country-registered aircraft based in the EU is to expire on 8th April 2014. The amendment to the regulation will extend the derogation to 8th April 2015.

This means that pilots employed by companies operating privately operated corporate aircraft such as yourself do not require a Part-FCL validation until 8th April 2015.

[Pace]

No not yet as this gives us 1.5 years to carry on as before! I am told that a big part of the extension is to get a BASA with the FAA where there is now some light at the end of the tunnel and that a further extension is possible.

on top of that even in 2015 I have a possible 2 years conversion time on validations so making it 3.5 years before I need to hold EASA licences to operate.

As such for now I will sit tight and see what develops along the BASA lines hopefully towards an FAA Canada route for conversion which is a practical and sensible route.

Pace

[Pace]

I get the point Pace, but I read it as a maximum of 1 year validation

I thought the same but not true as long as you are on a conversion course you are given the second year to complete. I could not get my head round that either but it amounts to 2 years.
But hopefully the picture will be different by then

I think the validation as a one off is not based on licence conversion time ie someone who had no intention of converting would be only entitled to one validation! With genuine converters there is flexibility to add another year. The two issues are different and treated so.
For instance you could have a job offer in Outer Mongolia starting in a years time so no wish to convert. You are still entitled to a one off validation!
One month before the year is up the job goes and you sign up to a conversion course there is flexibility to accommodate you.
So effectively 2 years you would be hard pushed to justify more than the second year

pace

[BillieBob]

Annex III to Regulation 1178/2011

The period of validation of a licence shall not exceed 1 year....

This extension shall cover the period of time necessary for the licence to be issued in accordance with Part-FCL.

Where does 2 years come from? By the letter of the law, the extension is open ended - what if it takes 2 years (or more) to get the licence issued?

[Pace]

I do not really want to go in detail but i have seen complete 180 about turns on interpretations of EASA regulation making and I wont go into detail where the 2 year came from either. Albeit lucky they did extend 1 year or chaos would rule.

Pace

[moonym20]

The validation process involves a lot of jumping through various hoops, the CAA will issue a 12 month validation which can then be extended once only, that everyone knew.

However, the extension is subject to you then proving you have enrolled on a course to convert, ie the ATPL writtens. This extension will be decided by the CAA when they speak to your training provider and reach a decision on how long they believe you will take to convert. Pilot Validation @ the CAA had one person who got their validation issued then said they wanted a three year extension, that was refused and they gave an 8 month extension.

Pilots should take a close look at Cap804 and Annex III page 529 - if you were enjoying life as a jet jockey captain and your experience doesn't fit the right box you will be lucky if they allow you a validation to sit in the Right seat!

The 12 month delay for this madness is stay of execution only. There's a lot of work to do to correct the numerous problems that exist.

[Pace]

MooneyM20

You do have to jump through a lot of hoops and at massive expense!
Wil it be a 1.5 year ie a year from next April or will that be extended again?
Will it ever happen? Somehow I think not? I think there are too many problems as well as legal problems enacting these laws as they stand and some sort of BASA is the only practical way forward.
It was always madness this dual licence thing especially as the licences had no bearing on the aircraft being flown!
So a better way to achieve a result will have to be found and one which is not so damaging to European citizens going about their lawful business.
So I do not see it as a stay of execution but the beginning of the end of flawed regulations which should be relocated to the rubbish bin

Pilots should take a close look at Cap804 and Annex III page 529 - if you were enjoying life as a jet jockey captain and your experience doesn't fit the right box you will be lucky if they allow you a validation to sit in the Right seat!

M20 that was the case but see my earlier post about a 180

Pace

[mad_jock]

Will it ever happen? Somehow I think not? I think there are too many problems as well as legal problems enacting these laws as they stand and some sort of BASA is the only practical way forward.

You keep saying that, but so many things have had exactly the same issues and have still gone through involving factors of 10 more EU citizens being restricted if not out rightly stopped from doing there jobs which they have done for most of their lifes. Including professional pilots in the EU who used to be able to fly with a night restriction on a CPL but now can't. So cannot now earn a living from teaching CPL level because they don't hold one.

The lobbying that is going on from the other side to get it through is astronomical. And that's from industry and the civil servant side of things.

They don't want European citizens flying in Europe with a European license what ever flavour of nationality of the aircraft.

It would be a very silly employer who would take on anyone to fly a N reg in Europe without dual licensing. Also I suspect apart from a minority of die hards, I ain't doing it on a point of principle I suspect most are jumping through the hoops.

What ever you say it isn't that expensive to get converted, the exams aren't that hard.

[Pace]

Mad Jock

I know a lot more than I am
Letting on one colleague runs three type ratings he is expected to be validated on 3 types ? His type ratings cost him over 20 k a year on recurrent s what do you think 3 validations would cost on top ?
So it is very expensive! I can assure you without going into detail there are legal issues as well as other issues? Why do you think the Commission has delayed 1.5 years ? For fun ? There will be a solution which suits EASA las well as aw abiding pilots making a living on N reg but it won't be what's on the table at the moment take my word for it
Reminding you that come April 2014 you said without doubt that we would all have to hold EASA equivalent licences I said it would be extended to 2016 and would probably never happen who of us right so far
MJ we always get on just different religions ; )
Pace

[mad_jock]

No it won't be what's on the table just now. But you will have to do the ATPL theory and you will have to do a LST. The transfer of type ratings you may get a group pass on initially but then they will follow the normal currency rules in the EU.

Letting on one colleague runs three type ratings he is expected to be validated on 3 types ? His type ratings cost him over 20 k a year on recurrent s what do you think 3 validations would cost on top ?

That's exactly the reason why it will change to stop one EU citizen having a economic advantage over the others flying exactly the same type of planes in exactly the same countries. We can't have 3 types active at one time.

The validations would be one off's at about 800quid each I suspect which will be tax deductible unless they say you only have to do one and types which you have time on in the previous 12 months are granted without check.

[Pace]

MJ

Talk to me in 1.5 years

Pace

[mad_jock]

We shall see how it goes.

But having seen what they did to get the recent FTL changes through I personally think you are stuffed.

[Pace]

MJ

As a person who thinks the sun shines out of EASAs ??? I am not surprised you hold that stance ; ) Also as one who hates everything FAA

Pace

[mad_jock]

You are wrong on both counts.

Just more of a realist than you are.

I do though hold the position that all of us that are citizens who live and work in the same area should be subject to the same set of regulations.

[Pace]

MJ

I have no problems changing to EASA licences in a sensible FAA to Transport Canada style conversion which is what it should be!
I do have a problem as an ICAO ATP holder being treated as ann18 year old with no aviation experience and expected to do 14 mostly irrelevant exams and to pay a huge amount of money getting validations to do what I do as safely and professionally as you now!
So Air law and quick flight test and I am
Happy politically motivated rubbish I am
Not ; ( speak to you in 1.5 years and remember this conversation ; )

Pace

[mad_jock]

I will refrain from telling you I told you so.

When the FAA allow EU pilots to convert with no theory exams apart from airlaw you might have a chance.

I really don't see them bowing to anyone and changing the way they do things.


And I see huge amounts of lobbying not to let it happen from both sides civil servants and industry.

[Pace]

I will refrain from telling you I told you so.

Don't refrain on my behalf ; ) you told me that come April 2014 I would have to convert to EASA or be out if a job ???
There is no way this will go through in its current form as it breaks a stack of European law take my word for it MJ this time I do know what I am
Talking about but it's better we leave it for now speak again 1,5 years down the line or maybe 2.5 when it gets extended again!
As for backed by industry I presume you are referring to a French flying school with a prominent influential owner who started all this? The whole thing stinks and it's not a nice smell

Pace

[mad_jock]

Nope not just the training industry you have a lot of the biz jet compnays pushing for it as well.

And more than likely most of the socialist states pilot groups just because it isn't they way they like to see things done.

We shall see what happens personally it doesn't affect me one little bit. I also believe that in your 2.5 years the bulk of the drivers will have transferred because they can't afford to not feed the family. And once your group starts shrinking that's it.

I also don't think they will care one little bit if it breaks other laws if it actually does. As I said the laws that you hang your hat on wern;t trigger for numerous other changes in law which caused the working practises of various industry's to require re-qualification.

[Pace]

MJ
We always cross swords on this issue a BASA has to be the right way forward! Other than legal problems.validation problems for a number of member states the main reason is light at the end of the tunnel with a BASA!
Why else do you think the delay has happened and what is wrong with a FAA transport Canada type conversion ? God you are so fixed in he past?
Anyway I hope you're not eventually right as it will stick EASA firmly as not a forward looking organisation but one driven by political and protectionism only

Pace

[BillieBob]

stick EASA firmly as not a forward looking organisation but one driven by political and protectionism only

Noooo! Surely not.