LAPL and N-Reg?
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The intent of the FAR seems pretty clear. "If the foreign state gives you a licence that entitles you to fly that type in their airspace then we're happy to allow you to fly the same type in the same airspace if it has an "N" painted on the side and is therefore subject to our laws." This is nothing to do with ICAO.
If the foreign state wants to disallow this then they can do so. To do so would however be perverse. They would be restricting your ability to fly a particular type based solely on the fact that it is N reg. The only possible justification would be an implication that there is something deficient in the US airworthiness regime. Anything else would be a protectionist restriction of free trade.
If the foreign state wants to disallow this then they can do so. To do so would however be perverse. They would be restricting your ability to fly a particular type based solely on the fact that it is N reg. The only possible justification would be an implication that there is something deficient in the US airworthiness regime. Anything else would be a protectionist restriction of free trade.
Last edited by Mike Cross; 7th Sep 2013 at 06:51.
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Cool, so we have removed the IMCr issues at a stroke as well. Everyone gets a LAPL with an IMCr on it and flys and N reg. simples!!
In fact it does not even need to be a LAPL, a UK national licence with the IMCr on it is already available. Throw in the N reg and the problem is solved in a stroke.
Genius!
In fact it does not even need to be a LAPL, a UK national licence with the IMCr on it is already available. Throw in the N reg and the problem is solved in a stroke.
Genius!
Last edited by S-Works; 7th Sep 2013 at 07:14.
Other Member States have already decided, without any real rationale, that an N-reg aircraft may not be flown by sub-ICAO licence holders. To avert the risk of this becoming accepted as some formal EASA policy without any foundation, the CAA has asked the FAA to clarify the situation and the FAA has agreed to do so.
Last edited by BEagle; 7th Sep 2013 at 13:15.
Other Member States have already decided, without any real rationale, that an N-reg aircraft may not be flown by sub-ICAO licence holders. To avert the risk of this becoming accepted as some formal EASA policy without any foundation, the CAA has asked the FAA to clarify the situation and the FAA has agreed to do so.
Everyone gets a LAPL with an IMCr on it and flys and N reg. simples!!
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Most responses to your original question try much too hard to complicate the issue. The first response was the best. If it is not specifically prohibited by the FAR's, then it is allowed by the FAA, period, end of statement. Now, whether or not it is allowed by the country and/or license where you are operating said aircraft becomes the jurisdiction of that individual CAA. In other words, you have to comply with the rules of both countries.
Last summer I was flying for a Swedish company, with my JAA/EASA license, on a wet-lease in Chile. We had to comply with EU Ops 1, AND DGAC rules. Usually EU Ops 1 was more restrictive, but not always. When it came to night flying, the DGAC rules were much more limiting.
Another example that applies directly to me right now, albeit with a different twist - Currently I am working for Embraer, a Brazilian aircraft manufacturer, in the United States, with my FAA license. Often our demo aircraft are PT registered. While operating said aircraft strictly within US airspace, the FAR's allow me to do so if I have an appropriate FAA license and type-rating. However, ANAC's rules do not allow this for commercial operations. More specifically, one must be a Brazilian citizen to fly for hire on an aircraft of Brazilian registry. SOoooo, whenever I fly a PT registered aircraft, my name doesn't even go into the ship's log. Since I am currently flying the Phenoms, which are single-pilot certified, I am technically (per ANAC) not even part of the crew, though per our company norms I am. Obviously this "work around" would not even be possible if I were currently flying an aircraft that requires two rated pilots...
Last summer I was flying for a Swedish company, with my JAA/EASA license, on a wet-lease in Chile. We had to comply with EU Ops 1, AND DGAC rules. Usually EU Ops 1 was more restrictive, but not always. When it came to night flying, the DGAC rules were much more limiting.
Another example that applies directly to me right now, albeit with a different twist - Currently I am working for Embraer, a Brazilian aircraft manufacturer, in the United States, with my FAA license. Often our demo aircraft are PT registered. While operating said aircraft strictly within US airspace, the FAR's allow me to do so if I have an appropriate FAA license and type-rating. However, ANAC's rules do not allow this for commercial operations. More specifically, one must be a Brazilian citizen to fly for hire on an aircraft of Brazilian registry. SOoooo, whenever I fly a PT registered aircraft, my name doesn't even go into the ship's log. Since I am currently flying the Phenoms, which are single-pilot certified, I am technically (per ANAC) not even part of the crew, though per our company norms I am. Obviously this "work around" would not even be possible if I were currently flying an aircraft that requires two rated pilots...
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Slightly off topic....and yet......
I'm waiting for a reply from the UK CAA on this question, but in the meantime does anyone know if, having completed the minimum 30 hrs necessary to gain the LAPL in the UK, can the new LAPL holder then go abroad outside of Europe, to the USA, for example, and act as PIC of a light aircraft albeit with an FAA approved license-holder like an instructor in the other seat for safety/legal reasons, in order to complete the extra 10 hrs required for the new EASA LAPL-holder to then be able to carry (non-fare paying naturally) passengers within Europe using the privileges of that LAPL?
Put simply, can you act as PIC of an aircraft in an aircraft for which you are qualified to fly but not in the State in which you intend to fly it, as long as you are accompanied by an appropriate license-holder in the other seat?
The idea is to do the initial LAPL in the UK, then have fun traveling and doing some cheap flying in the States to complete the experience requirements required for the LAPL.
I've only just discovered the LAPL by the way, and it looks like a great new innovation from EASA. One of the few.
Put simply, can you act as PIC of an aircraft in an aircraft for which you are qualified to fly but not in the State in which you intend to fly it, as long as you are accompanied by an appropriate license-holder in the other seat?
The idea is to do the initial LAPL in the UK, then have fun traveling and doing some cheap flying in the States to complete the experience requirements required for the LAPL.
I've only just discovered the LAPL by the way, and it looks like a great new innovation from EASA. One of the few.
Last edited by 123breath; 7th Sep 2014 at 14:48. Reason: Clarity
The specific requirements for LAPL holders to upgrade to a PPL are:
The LAPL(A) has no validity outside EASA states - so you couldn't complete the solo flying in the USA. Which would have to be under the supervision of an FI anyway - and you won't find many ATOs approved for Part-FCL training in the USA before long, due to the prohibitive cost of EASA approval.
The FAA has already rejected 61.75 applications from LAPL(A) holders, due to the licence being sub-ICAO.
Whether the CAA would accept the 15-10=5 other hours of 'flight time on aeroplanes' if it was flown PU/T with a non-EASA FI in the USA, I do not know. But flying over to the USA to fly 5 dual hours seems an expensive way of doing things to me.
FCL.210.A PPL(A) — Experience requirements and crediting
(b) Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a PPL(A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL(A), of which at least 10 shall be flight instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training course shall include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.
(b) Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a PPL(A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL(A), of which at least 10 shall be flight instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training course shall include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.
The FAA has already rejected 61.75 applications from LAPL(A) holders, due to the licence being sub-ICAO.
Whether the CAA would accept the 15-10=5 other hours of 'flight time on aeroplanes' if it was flown PU/T with a non-EASA FI in the USA, I do not know. But flying over to the USA to fly 5 dual hours seems an expensive way of doing things to me.
the CAA has asked the FAA to clarify the situation and the FAA has agreed to do so.
BEagle. I hope you will let us know what the FAA response is to the CAA enquiry.
From the LAA Website FAQ:
Q Can I fly my 'N' registered aircraft on my NPPL?
A Yes. The FAA have confirmed 14 CFR 61.3 permits the holder of a UK-issued sub-ICAO licence, such as the NPPL or LAPL, to operate a US (N) registered aircraft within the UK.
A Yes. The FAA have confirmed 14 CFR 61.3 permits the holder of a UK-issued sub-ICAO licence, such as the NPPL or LAPL, to operate a US (N) registered aircraft within the UK.
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From CAP804
I think that a reasonable person could interpret that as, is valid in UK airspace for the piloting of UK registered aircraft only.
Also as
is valid in UK airspace for the piloting of, UK registered aircraft only.
Further down in CAP804 the NPPL is defined as
So, if I am flying an N-reg, my licence is not valid. The FAA (allegedly) say that they permit me to fly their aircraft, if I have a licence (issued by another country) that would allow me to fly that plane. However my CAA issued licence is clearly not valid for N-Reg, so I don't in fact have such a licence.
The FAA might well allow me to fly it, (as in, they don't object) the CAA do not say that the licence is valid for non UK registered aircraft. Do the FAA have authority to permit me (NPPL only) to fly a 172 in the UK?
The CAA document seems clear enough, " the piloting of UK registered aircraft only " so I don't see how you can use it fly an N-Reg C172 here.
So, if we do fly it, are we doing so under the FAA rules rather than the CAA rules?
CAP804 is not worded as "valid only in UK airspace" but "valid in UK airspace.. for UK reg... only" which is a different circumstance.
Like so many other parts of legislation relating the NPPL and LAPL, this seems to have been drawn up by blind nuns. How hard can it be to write the rules to reflect the intent? The exact wording is important, as is getting it right.
My interpretation is that the CAA do not explicitly allow it. They don't prohibit it either, they just don't include the flying of N-Reg aircraft as a privilege of holding an NPPL.
The UK National Private Pilots Licence (NPPL) is a licence issued by the CAA that is valid in UK airspace for the piloting of UK registered aircraft only. (The NPPL may only be used in another country with the permission of the relevant authorities of that country.)
Also as
is valid in UK airspace for the piloting of, UK registered aircraft only.
Further down in CAP804 the NPPL is defined as
A non-ICAO licence
which permits the holder to fly for leisure within the UK only, within the terms of the SSEA, SLMG, or Microlight rating as applicable
which permits the holder to fly for leisure within the UK only, within the terms of the SSEA, SLMG, or Microlight rating as applicable
The FAA might well allow me to fly it, (as in, they don't object) the CAA do not say that the licence is valid for non UK registered aircraft. Do the FAA have authority to permit me (NPPL only) to fly a 172 in the UK?
The CAA document seems clear enough, " the piloting of UK registered aircraft only " so I don't see how you can use it fly an N-Reg C172 here.
So, if we do fly it, are we doing so under the FAA rules rather than the CAA rules?
CAP804 is not worded as "valid only in UK airspace" but "valid in UK airspace.. for UK reg... only" which is a different circumstance.
Like so many other parts of legislation relating the NPPL and LAPL, this seems to have been drawn up by blind nuns. How hard can it be to write the rules to reflect the intent? The exact wording is important, as is getting it right.
My interpretation is that the CAA do not explicitly allow it. They don't prohibit it either, they just don't include the flying of N-Reg aircraft as a privilege of holding an NPPL.
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My interpretation is that the CAA do not explicitly allow it. They don't prohibit it either, they just don't include the flying of N-Reg aircraft as a privilege of holding an NPPL.
The FAA (allegedly) say that they permit me to fly their aircraft, if I have a licence (issued by another country) that would allow me to fly that plane.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
This response confirms that the privileges for holders of a NPPL, or LAPL, or holders of ratings such as the IR(R)/IMC may be exercised in N-registered aircraft.
Use of a UK-issued EASA licence in other member states is clarified here:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf
So, if we do fly it, are we doing so under the FAA rules rather than the CAA rules?
ifitaint...
they just don't include the flying of N-Reg aircraft as a privilege of holding an NPPL.
