Aircraft down in Channel

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

@ JetBlu

Thanks for your continued interest, yes that's exactly the problem, people are beginning to say that the cause is well on target whereas they need £30k I believe not £10k. Unfortunately Just Giving don't allow the initially posted target to be changed so those visiting the site have to trawl thru some of the comments and narrative to realise it's £10k x 3 for a 3-day search. Ah well, not sure what else can be done other than word of mouth by those who've pledged so far.

[IRpilot2006]

Why would an insurer want to recover it, when the scrap value will be nil?

Just wondering...

[Swiss Cheese]

Why an aviation insurer might be interested in recovering the wreckage

Apparently, some 30 million Euro was spent by aviation insurers for Air France and Airbus in the extended location and recovery of the A330 from Flight AF447 in the mid-Atlantic.

There are multiple reasons why an aviation insurer might be interested in a salvage operation, given that the aviation insurer here will be facing a hull claim in excess of US$250,000, and potentially other claims:

1. Aviation Hull insurers have rights of subrogation to recover their policy payouts in the event the loss is partly or wholly due to the fault of a third party. This tends to happen behind closed doors in private legal proceedings called Arbitrations, so they do not often see the public light of day.

2. Aviation Insurers always conduct due diligence in the course of considering whether any and all claims are valid and not excluded by the Policy, and its all-important small print. Loss Adjusters will already have been instructed to commence that task.

3. Aviation Insurers are considered to be "interested parties" in Coroners Inquests in England and Wales. The Inquest can be informative as to the questions or where, when and how a Deceased came by their death.

4. It is generally the right thing to do, in the circumstance, to assist the Policyholder client. Believe it or not, some insurers in London are actually sympathetic.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

.... and if you've paid your premiums (£4-6k p.a. for 6-7 years) and the policy says recovery and salvage are covered why not make a claim ?

[Jetblu]

@IRpilot2006

Are you being serious? Not withstanding probably another 100 valid reasons to the 4 primary ones already mentioned above, on humanity grounds alone, should not leave anyone wondering why.



I understand that when next of kins have requested that a sole/s remain with the aircraft, the underwriters/brokers/AAIB etc have respected those wishes.

I cannot believe that there is not more of us jumping up and down over this.
This could apply to anyone one of us, so long as you are all happy that the next desperate plea could be your own wife's/ girlfriends etc.
And for sure, I would be banging the same drum.

[Contacttower]

I see they are nearly at £20K, do hope they make it.

[Jetblu]

More news here.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...KwAx5xHE5NAcMA


@GMM


**APPEAL - if those divers are reading this Blog - Please urgently get in touch!

Eventually we heard the news. The AAIB said that they would NOT be recovering the additional sea bed material - for us this was a big blow. However the AAIB were willing to give us the location of the sea bed find, but not the contact details of the divers.**


Just a suggestion, post this information on a diving forum. Diving is like GA in a close knit community. A few members here are keen divers and may be able to steer you in the right direction.

Pace....where are you?

[JDA2012]

Partial wreckage actually found by recreational divers - interesting, and does effectively confirm the depth.

Jetblu - I have posted on the BSAC forum appealing for the divers in question to contact the search operation via the website - not sure anything will come of this or even if they were "our" divers but worth a shot.

BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

[mad_jock]

As an experienced diver who has done survey work and underwater recover (I used to hold a part 4)

I really really do hope that if you do go down the recreational call to arms you have someone with a clue who is organising and running the whole thing with an iron rod and whip/tazzer.

As much as I can understand your will to do what you perceive to be the right thing what your undertaking is getting pretty high up the risk level for recreation diving. Lets not have another death please.

If this was undertaken as a commercial job all the divers would be on surface demand and there would be a rescue diver suited up. A de-co chamber would be on-site.

The lifting of a 200 plus KG lump of metal which is covered in sharp edges and not designed to be lifted underwater is also not to be taken lightly. Also as well you won't be able to follow the familys wish of leaving your friends body where it rests.

Not to go into details but the AIBB and insurance company's will know exactly what the score is and personally I would suggest you leave well alone if they don't want to recover it.

I must admit this reminds me a lot of the Trident trawler up my way. In the end an oil service company dropped in and recovered the bodies while transiting back to port while blowing the divers back up from 500m. Knowing one of the bosses of said company one of the reasons doing it was A) the divers were good for 70m anyway. B) he didn't want to read in the news papers of someone getting killed trying to recover them on a rebreather.

I will state now if there is a head line of a fat baldy Scottish pilot fatally crashing into the water please please leave me in peace and don't risk anyones life recovering the lumps of meat/bone left. I am more than happy for my remains to be left in Davies locker.

[JDA2012]

mad_jock - Indeed, I am certainly not trying to get rec divers to try and lift anything or indeed to take any action without appropriate oversight, I would just like those who already located the wreckage (not sure if they were actually looking for it at the time) or any locals who may know something to get in touch with the search operation (of which I am not a part, and which as far as I can tell IS using commercial divers) to answer the questions they have, as they have asked on the website.

[Jetblu]

@JDA2012. Nice one. They have asked for assistance so your help will no doubt be appreciated.

@mad_jock I am probably with you and would personally wish to stay with the aircraft BUT, if my next of kin wanted me back and laid to rest on dry land OR all the authorities carp coming about with me doing a 007, jumping out and believed to be drinking in a bar South America, shaken, not stirred, who are we to disagree with her wishes. She is undoubtedly also wishing to clear his name from all the hype and hysteria. I personally take my hat off to her.

[mad_jock]

Having been in the situation at a wake of a pilot, of being told by a relative that they where having big problems with the undertaker not allowing an open coffin.

I suspect that someone hasn't sat them down and told them what actually occurs in a high energy crash (indicated by the wreck break up) into incompressible water.

And if a relative is reading this sit someone down and ask them directly. I am not saying this with any sort of glee. I just don't want you pushing and hoping for something which is going to cause even more hurt, than knowing the truth.

[cockney steve]

Thanks to Jon Zarno for pointing out the insensitive nature if my post. I have left the last line.

Insurance may be the deciding factor.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

My sense is that the AAIB have probably concluded it's a case of pilot disorientation, resulting in a high speed impact, drawing their conclusions from the 15% of the aircraft so far recovered. Hence they aren't taking the search any further. But they haven't entirely washed their hands of it so are in close communication with the family and project organisers.

Yes a professional survey company has been commissioned to "re-find" the remainder of the aircraft that the recreational divers located a week or so ago. And knowing those involved helping the family, the divers will have been well and truly briefed on what might usefully be brought up to the surface, not least the MFD so its flight data can be examined.

But the priority is to find the pilot and, as some have said, it is more about knowing where he is to give his family and friends some closure than necessarily recovering him to the surface, that is for them to decide as and when.

The latest update on the next phase can be found here. Please pledge your support via the link and Pledge button if you're able to help, the project still needs at least another £10k, given the length of survey / recovery required. Here's the Blog ......

Help Find Him

[India Four Two]

My sense is that the AAIB have probably concluded it's a case of pilot disorientation

Having recently flown a Cirrus, I would be very surprised if that was the case. If ever there was an aircraft that was meant to be flown on autopilot, the Cirrus is it. I did an out-and-return from Van Nuys to Avalon (50nm each way) and the only time I touched the stick was on takeoff until 500' and in the circuit for landing, and at 200' off an ILS.

I've contributed to the fund.

[mad_jock]

india you do get an effect that the pilot begins to think that there is something wrong with automatics.

It can be cloud top slant, fog bank on water or a distance effect on the horizon.

When a FO first gets it you have to go through checking the instruments and all the other toys. Some are sure they are in a turn and climbing/descending and would be quite happy to pop the AP out and make it look right. Takes a change in faith and instrument discipline before they become comfortable with seeing the effect and double checking its a visual error.

[John R81]

In single pilot unstablised helicopter "the leans" can be easily induced. No matter what anyone has taught you, it takes significant willpower to stay with the instruments first time it happens.

[India Four Two]

It can be cloud top slant, fog bank on water or a distance effect on the horizon.

mj,

I can see how that would be very insidious. Disconnect the AP, "level" the wings to a false horizon and end up in a spiral dive.

I've only ever had the leans under the hood and as you say, it requires discipline and faith in the instruments.

[India Four Two]

I've contributed to the fund.

GMM,

I spoke to soon. I couldn't find a link to the fund. Can you help?

[Unusual Attitude]

I remember getting the leans for the first time on my CPL course.

In the middle of a climb in IMC the instructor says to me "Have you ever had the leans before?"
I relplied "Funny you should mention that as I'm getting them right now!" "Thought so." he said with a wry smile as he could see me wrestling with my inner ear Vs the instruments, it is indeed very tough to trust the instruements rather than your own senses.

Having been flying with the G1000 quite a bit recently I would be very surprised to hear of a pilot with an IR or IMC losing control given how good the system is for SA. You also have a traditional backup AI, ASI and ALT to cross check against even if your doubting what the glass is telling you.

If I was flying Enroute in the clag with a G1000 I'd be sitting back monitoring the automatics which is where that set up really comes into its own.

As MJ says however, still nothing stopping you punching the automatics out, disbelieving the whole lot and trying to hand fly your senses......