Aircraft down in Channel
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Mariner9
Sorry I was only trying to help, but maybe after 40 years working in ATC and the last 20 working Scottish Information and in very close liason with Scottish D&D till they shifted to London earlier this year I thought I may know what I was talking about.....sadly you choose not to listen. 
Thanks for the lesson FBW. No please teach me how to get a Mayday call in to London Info when there are 30 aircraft all waiting to get a call in for a BS and the winner is the fastest to the PTT button as soon as last transmission stops? If I squawked 7700 would London Info be aware it was someone previously working them and put out a broadcast for all a/c to STF up?
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fisbangwallop, London FIS is unfortunately overloaded by pilots seeking a tail number collection service.
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Some of you guys seem to be missing FBW's point.
D&D coverage is from a limited number of antennas and specifically
'Covers most of the UK above 3000 feet MSL and in many (but not all) areas is good below this level'.
Whereas the unit you are tuned to (like London FIS or Manston, etc.) may well have a much better located antenna and be able to cover you much closer to the ground (although maybe not with the same VDF facilities D&D use).
If you can describe where you are, or are transponding, staying with your current service will avoid the potential that at your level and position you are out of range of D&D (in which case, you are relying on an airline to hear you, relay to their current working frequency, to relay again, for asking any questions, etc.). If you don't know where you are and don't have a transponder, then switching to D&D and hoping they can get a DF fix is probably a better bet.
I hear busy frequencies, but the squeal of two at once, shuts up most people. Key up, take a deep breath, say your piece, wait a moment and unkey. The frequency will then be quiet except for one Muppet who keeps on talking and when he stops, ATC will say 'all stations, standby while I work the Mayday' - and then he will go to you (periodically telling the new joiners to 'standby, Mayday in progress').
D&D coverage is from a limited number of antennas and specifically
'Covers most of the UK above 3000 feet MSL and in many (but not all) areas is good below this level'.
Whereas the unit you are tuned to (like London FIS or Manston, etc.) may well have a much better located antenna and be able to cover you much closer to the ground (although maybe not with the same VDF facilities D&D use).
If you can describe where you are, or are transponding, staying with your current service will avoid the potential that at your level and position you are out of range of D&D (in which case, you are relying on an airline to hear you, relay to their current working frequency, to relay again, for asking any questions, etc.). If you don't know where you are and don't have a transponder, then switching to D&D and hoping they can get a DF fix is probably a better bet.
I hear busy frequencies, but the squeal of two at once, shuts up most people. Key up, take a deep breath, say your piece, wait a moment and unkey. The frequency will then be quiet except for one Muppet who keeps on talking and when he stops, ATC will say 'all stations, standby while I work the Mayday' - and then he will go to you (periodically telling the new joiners to 'standby, Mayday in progress').
With respect FBW, I did listen, but feel you missed the point of my earlier post.
I never doubted that London Info would do a brilliant job with a Mayday call, but the point I was trying to make is the difficultly in getting that mayday heard by London in the first place. Sadly my impression of London Info on a sunny weekend is that unlike Scottish Info, there are too many BS (appropriate abbreviation!) requests going on to make it a reliable emergency channel.
Not knocking the guys and gals who work in London Info in any way - they have a huge area to cover and the sheer number of my fellow pilots who cant seem to fly from A-B or even A-A without passing their life story over the radio overload the system on sunny weekends IMHO
I never doubted that London Info would do a brilliant job with a Mayday call, but the point I was trying to make is the difficultly in getting that mayday heard by London in the first place. Sadly my impression of London Info on a sunny weekend is that unlike Scottish Info, there are too many BS (appropriate abbreviation!) requests going on to make it a reliable emergency channel.
Not knocking the guys and gals who work in London Info in any way - they have a huge area to cover and the sheer number of my fellow pilots who cant seem to fly from A-B or even A-A without passing their life story over the radio overload the system on sunny weekends IMHO
Last edited by Mariner9; 23rd Jul 2013 at 16:15.
Perhaps it is time for a bit of levity?
I have personally never had to put out a Mayday in anger in more than 50 years of aviation.
However, some 40 years ago, a friend of mine had an engine fire in the middle of the night somewhere near Araxos in Greece and out went his Mayday;
Athens ATC: "Station calling Mayday stand by; Speedbird 221 go ahead with your position report!!!!!"
Things like that don't happen any more. Do they?
I have personally never had to put out a Mayday in anger in more than 50 years of aviation.
However, some 40 years ago, a friend of mine had an engine fire in the middle of the night somewhere near Araxos in Greece and out went his Mayday;
Athens ATC: "Station calling Mayday stand by; Speedbird 221 go ahead with your position report!!!!!"
Things like that don't happen any more. Do they?
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My experience of working London Info on a sunny weekend has been similar to Mariner9, and I did put 121.5 on the standby frequency as I couldn't get a word in edgeways on London Info whilst crossing the channel. On initial contact after leaving Southends frequency, I was asked to stand by, eventually called back after coasting out at Dover, told to call mid channel, but was coasting in to France before I could get a word in. Wouldn't have felt able to get a mayday in on that frequency on that occasion. They also seemed to be working traffic all over the place not just the channel. Heard someone around the Cheshire area on frequency going to the Isle of Man.
So whilst I agree its generally best to stay with who you are, London Info on a good flying weekend is an exception I think, unless they get more frequencies to spread the workload out.
So whilst I agree its generally best to stay with who you are, London Info on a good flying weekend is an exception I think, unless they get more frequencies to spread the workload out.
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Also, I have the impression that the centres MUX together the various feeds from antennas and can use the differential signal strength to do a better job of pulling some information out of a two at once transmission than we can in the air.
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Some myths being bandied around re D&D coverage. The 3000 feet coverage that often gets generalised is for accurate DF fixing not RT coverage or SSR/PSR coverage. As for RT coverage over the channel, I had cause to put out a mayday call a couple of years ago in the Abbeville area at about 1800 feet on 121.5. It was picked up very quickly and emergency services informed....all by D&D at London Centre 
Moli
Moli
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I had reason to make a mayday call some years ago over the channel.
I was working London on box 1 and Lydd on box 2. People do not seem to come up for air with London info, passing all sorts of details, including what is in their sandwiches. I flicked the switch and made my position call with Lydd who relayed my message.
I was working London on box 1 and Lydd on box 2. People do not seem to come up for air with London info, passing all sorts of details, including what is in their sandwiches. I flicked the switch and made my position call with Lydd who relayed my message.
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MM Flynn.......thanks for the sensible post......it seems you pay your money and take your choice but what I can confirm is that the last Mayday I handled at Scottish Info was on a very very very busy Easter Sunday when every man and their dog was up flying and talking on my frequency......the moment the Mayday call was made every one of those men and dogs shut it and allowed me to get the Mayday sorted very quickly with the telephone help of Scottish D&D.......so Mariner9 if in the future your not interested in listening to those in the know please feel free to tootle around without talking to anyone as seems to be your wish.
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Human nature being what it is, when {say it in a nasal voice} "Golf-Kilo-November-Oscar-Braaaavoooh" is relating their entire route and lunch plans, would they possibly not just keep talking in the hope you'll realise your "mistake" and stop transmitting?
Would keying morse S-O-S on the PTT be likely to get a more immediate stop response even from them? It would only take about 3 secs max, then straight into Mayday-Mayday-Mayday?
Just a low hour pilot thinking out loud ...
Would keying morse S-O-S on the PTT be likely to get a more immediate stop response even from them? It would only take about 3 secs max, then straight into Mayday-Mayday-Mayday?
Just a low hour pilot thinking out loud ...
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FBW, i think you are being a little oversensitive. The point M9 is trying to make is the frequency congestion that can be experienced with London Info specifically, why try to battle to get a mayday call out when you can simply dial in another freq & speak to the experts directly. If the London info freq was quiet then thats a different matter but again it would depend on the type of emergency being experienced.
Moli
Moli
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German banker named as missing pilot - Telegraph
Also being treated as a missing person enquiry and a photo released, interesting wording.
Also being treated as a missing person enquiry and a photo released, interesting wording.
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if you are ever in a "situation" and have an epirb in the glove box activate the thing before you go in.
Does anybody know the signal strength of your average ELT/EPIRB/PLB vs. the signal strength of your average VHF COM? Can you still send and receive on 121.5 while the ELT/EPIRB/PLB is activated?
I seem to remember one post on here from quite a while ago (personal account of the aircraft ditching in the Irish sea perhaps?), that suggested you can't. That would make a strong case for not changing to 121.5, but staying on the current frequency.
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For me, there's some resonance in the names of the two service providers: Distress and Diversion are there to provide an alerting service and deal with aircraft in distress and diverting; FIS is there to provide a FIS. The units are equipped, and those staffing them are trained, for these purposes. Forgive me if this is stating the obvious.
In terms of coverage, don't forget that the flight crew of the majority of UK-operated airliners, and many others, monitor 121.5 on a spare box. This, providing you don't mind your distress or urgency call perhaps being relayed, provides effective coverage down to ground level.
In terms of coverage, don't forget that the flight crew of the majority of UK-operated airliners, and many others, monitor 121.5 on a spare box. This, providing you don't mind your distress or urgency call perhaps being relayed, provides effective coverage down to ground level.
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Interesting Telegraph wording indeed..
Please don't flame me here..I'm not normally of the conspiracy fraternity..
However...
1 It's pretty unusual, but not of course not unique, for a single to cross to Le Touquet with just one POB...
2 It's pretty rare, but of course not unique, for a single to be lost on an England to France channel crossing...
3 This incident occurred at almost exactly mid-channel..as far as possible vfrom available S&R facilities..
No disrespect but I felt immediately uneasy and even a tad suspicious when details of this accident first began to emerge.
We'll see..
TP
However...
1 It's pretty unusual, but not of course not unique, for a single to cross to Le Touquet with just one POB...
2 It's pretty rare, but of course not unique, for a single to be lost on an England to France channel crossing...
3 This incident occurred at almost exactly mid-channel..as far as possible vfrom available S&R facilities..
No disrespect but I felt immediately uneasy and even a tad suspicious when details of this accident first began to emerge.
We'll see..
TP
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TP,
I'm not sure that I can agree with your comments.
I would have thought it very likely that many many singles cross with one person on board every day. If I look at my local airport, and remove training flights from the picture, I suspect that the majority of aircraft take off with just one person on board. Le Touquet isn't a big flight for most of the South East. It's little more than a local flight.
Agreed. But not unique as you say. There are a few ditchings every year.
It's hardly far from S&R. Perhaps as far as is possible in the middle of the Channel, but certainly not far. If you were trying to be far from S&R there are a lot other places in the UK that you could go which would be further.
The Channel isn't that wide. You could glide to shore from a reasonable proporition of it.
Being mid channel could be relevant though because it would be the time that a pilot would be changing or preparing to change frequencies. If they were flying in instrument condition, low down, the distraction in checking and setting up the next frequency could be very relevant.
The facts don't look at all unusual to me. The only thing that raises any other thoughts would be the newspaper reports, but we've all learnt to be suspisious of news paper reports.
dp
I'm not sure that I can agree with your comments.
It's pretty unusual, but not of course not unique, for a single to cross to Le Touquet with just one POB...
It's pretty rare, but of course not unique, for a single to be lost on an England to France channel crossing...
This incident occurred at almost exactly mid-channel..as far as possible vfrom available S&R facilities..
The Channel isn't that wide. You could glide to shore from a reasonable proporition of it.
Being mid channel could be relevant though because it would be the time that a pilot would be changing or preparing to change frequencies. If they were flying in instrument condition, low down, the distraction in checking and setting up the next frequency could be very relevant.
The facts don't look at all unusual to me. The only thing that raises any other thoughts would be the newspaper reports, but we've all learnt to be suspisious of news paper reports.
dp
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fisbangwollop
I have been backwards and forwards over the short crossing a fair bit. Last time was today. At a weekend you could shout Mayday for 20 sec and nobody would hear you as at least two others would be trying to talk. Most people cross at around 3000ft. At that height I understand 121.5 coverage, in that area, is very good on both sides. I really think 121.5 is a vastly better prospect in that area. Up north I am sure you are right.
Rod1
I have been backwards and forwards over the short crossing a fair bit. Last time was today. At a weekend you could shout Mayday for 20 sec and nobody would hear you as at least two others would be trying to talk. Most people cross at around 3000ft. At that height I understand 121.5 coverage, in that area, is very good on both sides. I really think 121.5 is a vastly better prospect in that area. Up north I am sure you are right.
Rod1