Group Ownership in the East of England - So much demand, so few offerings...
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's true mad_jock, but the Grob 109 is a pretty good tourer for the hourly rate too!
No reason it couldn't be used to do the 300k cross country though I accept a VOR/DME equipped spamcan might be a better choice. I'd also suggest that "fun gliding about with the engine off" is a good way to improve handling skills which must also help with CPL prep. I'm simply suggesting it's a cheap way to do at 30 hours a bit differently and cheaply ... "more strings to your bow" and all that?
SS
No reason it couldn't be used to do the 300k cross country though I accept a VOR/DME equipped spamcan might be a better choice. I'd also suggest that "fun gliding about with the engine off" is a good way to improve handling skills which must also help with CPL prep. I'm simply suggesting it's a cheap way to do at 30 hours a bit differently and cheaply ... "more strings to your bow" and all that?
SS
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CPL is more of a glorified PPL test in a retractable wobbly prop.
Confident nav using headings and times and recording in your Plog.
I don't know much about the General handling side of things in a single because I did mine in a twin.
But from memory its glide approaches, PFL's, Steep turns, and stalling.
The test will more than likely be done in a Piper product if done on a single.
The Cherokee has the aerodynamics of a house brick compared to the Grob. The difference between it and the bigger aircraft that the OP will be moving onto are minimal. Also the style of flying the grob will be different to what they are going to have to use for the CPL.
I have absolutely zero problems with aspiring commercial pilots gliding in fact I look for it on CV's. But from a fixed wing ex instructors point of view my opinion would be that the piper would give better continuation of experience up the aircraft sizes to CPL level than the grob. If after obtain the expensive blue book they are looking for an aircraft to stay current on or fly for fun I would say the grob should definitely be looked at.
Confident nav using headings and times and recording in your Plog.
I don't know much about the General handling side of things in a single because I did mine in a twin.
But from memory its glide approaches, PFL's, Steep turns, and stalling.
The test will more than likely be done in a Piper product if done on a single.
The Cherokee has the aerodynamics of a house brick compared to the Grob. The difference between it and the bigger aircraft that the OP will be moving onto are minimal. Also the style of flying the grob will be different to what they are going to have to use for the CPL.
I have absolutely zero problems with aspiring commercial pilots gliding in fact I look for it on CV's. But from a fixed wing ex instructors point of view my opinion would be that the piper would give better continuation of experience up the aircraft sizes to CPL level than the grob. If after obtain the expensive blue book they are looking for an aircraft to stay current on or fly for fun I would say the grob should definitely be looked at.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Huge demand for groups in the East of England!??
Really!?? I've never known there to be huge demand for groups in Norfolk.
Whenever I've been to various flying clubs in Norfolk, there are always one or two adverts for shares on the notice boards that have been there for months, if not years.
I have never known demand to outstrip supply as shares are always notoriously hard to sell. There may not be that many groups around relatively speaking, but its always been and still is a buyers market when it comes to shares.
Fitting the particular groups criteria for acceptance, now that's a different matter altogether. And as already pointed out, hour builders quite often 'need not apply!'
Whenever I've been to various flying clubs in Norfolk, there are always one or two adverts for shares on the notice boards that have been there for months, if not years.
I have never known demand to outstrip supply as shares are always notoriously hard to sell. There may not be that many groups around relatively speaking, but its always been and still is a buyers market when it comes to shares.
Fitting the particular groups criteria for acceptance, now that's a different matter altogether. And as already pointed out, hour builders quite often 'need not apply!'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cambridge
Age: 27
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting thought, mad jock. It looks like if I do more than one hour per month, the PA28 shares work out cheaper than flying at the club. 5 hours a month in G-AVLB works out as £385 for the 5 hours, so averages £77 per hour. I'm going to have to find a good paying job if I want to be able to do that much flying while at school in the week!
Sadly, it does seem that for as long as I am stuck at Sixth Form, I shall not be able to earn enough to fly more than 2 or 3 hours a month, absolute tops. Unless I manage to create a business that earns me thousands while doing nothing, I shall have to wait until I finish and get a full time job. By that point, I'll be applying for cadetships and the like, so it seems that keeping my PPL current will be the main aim.
Best Regards
Luke
Sadly, it does seem that for as long as I am stuck at Sixth Form, I shall not be able to earn enough to fly more than 2 or 3 hours a month, absolute tops. Unless I manage to create a business that earns me thousands while doing nothing, I shall have to wait until I finish and get a full time job. By that point, I'll be applying for cadetships and the like, so it seems that keeping my PPL current will be the main aim.
Best Regards
Luke
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly, it does seem that for as long as I am stuck at Sixth Form, I shall not be able to earn enough to fly more than 2 or 3 hours a month, absolute tops.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In Exile...
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was a share kicking around not so long ago in a nice little RF3 at Little Gransden. OK only one seat but it's the cheapest flying you'll ever do. Unsure of the rules on what's countable but surely if you add TMG to your EASA/JAA PPL then you can fly the RF3 under the priviledges of your SEP and thus count the hours?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cambridge
Age: 27
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Crikey mate, when I was in 6th form I could barely afford the bus fair to the local aerodrome to look at the aircraft. What exactly does the modern 6th former do to earn three-four hundred quid a month?"
Lets say 2 hours.
G-AVLB:
£85 per hour.
£45 per month.
Therefore £215 per month.
Job: 4 hours evening per week x2 and 8 hours Saturday work @ £5.07-£5.75 per hour depending on department (let's say £5.07)
That makes £81.12 per week. Times that by four and you get £324.48 per month. That allows contingency for the flying to get study materials and other things.
Lets say 2 hours.
G-AVLB:
£85 per hour.
£45 per month.
Therefore £215 per month.
Job: 4 hours evening per week x2 and 8 hours Saturday work @ £5.07-£5.75 per hour depending on department (let's say £5.07)
That makes £81.12 per week. Times that by four and you get £324.48 per month. That allows contingency for the flying to get study materials and other things.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough. It would seem that opportunities for jobs are greater than in my time. I used to work a Saturday job for 30 bob a week (£1.50). There weren't any evening jobs as such. No MacD's and what have you. Best of luck anyway.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Luke, in your little bit of sums there, have you included costs for maintenance? A big bill can ruin budgets. The benefit of hiring, in the short term, is that you know exactly what you will spend. Also, don't forget landing fees...
Last edited by fwjc; 11th Jul 2013 at 05:51. Reason: Autocorrect auto incorrect.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Luke I have taught many pilots who have then gone on to be commercial at your age.
There is always a common problem.
You burn the hours out of sync with your stage in commercial training.
Yes everyone wants to go solo at 16 and have the license in there hands at 17. But then unless you have a serious plan of how to fund and do the commercial bit of your training you end up doing a few hours with no real plan and then stalling for lack of cash. Then when you do manage to scrape together the cash you don't have any extra to hit the training running and current.
I would advise that you hold back your training until you can fund right the way through to CPL and FI stage if that's the way you want to build hours. But even then you have to have a plan to get the IR within 2 years which you won't be able to do on a PPL instructors wage.
If you go through the forums you will find information on GAPAN and air league both of which do bursary's for young pilots.
the other thing to start on is building your CV there are 100's if not thousands of CV's out there that look exactly the same. Same hours same hobbys same everything to be honest apart from a slight variation in exam scores.
You need to start working on being different to the crowd, go push a wheelchair for some charity group, get a hobby that isn't football or reading. Try and develop your CV and get some experience which you can talk about at interview.
Unfortunately getting the blue CPL license is only the start of the process to become a commercial pilot. Getting a job can be even harder than getting the license.
There is always a common problem.
You burn the hours out of sync with your stage in commercial training.
Yes everyone wants to go solo at 16 and have the license in there hands at 17. But then unless you have a serious plan of how to fund and do the commercial bit of your training you end up doing a few hours with no real plan and then stalling for lack of cash. Then when you do manage to scrape together the cash you don't have any extra to hit the training running and current.
I would advise that you hold back your training until you can fund right the way through to CPL and FI stage if that's the way you want to build hours. But even then you have to have a plan to get the IR within 2 years which you won't be able to do on a PPL instructors wage.
If you go through the forums you will find information on GAPAN and air league both of which do bursary's for young pilots.
the other thing to start on is building your CV there are 100's if not thousands of CV's out there that look exactly the same. Same hours same hobbys same everything to be honest apart from a slight variation in exam scores.
You need to start working on being different to the crowd, go push a wheelchair for some charity group, get a hobby that isn't football or reading. Try and develop your CV and get some experience which you can talk about at interview.
Unfortunately getting the blue CPL license is only the start of the process to become a commercial pilot. Getting a job can be even harder than getting the license.
Might sound a funny idea, but would you fancy building a plane? An hour a night and you could have a single-seater - something like a mini-max - by the time you were ready to do your PPL and then you could easily afford to stay current.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cambridge
Age: 27
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a thought, but would it be worth asking around and advertising to see whether anyone in the area would be interested in sharing something like a Jodel D112? I've heard that the D112 is the ideal group aircraft - cheap to buy, cheap to run and lovely to fly. An example could be a group near Bath where they share a D112 between six people, and each pay £45 a month and £10 per dry hour.
Seems like very good value to me, considering that you can pick up a recently rebuilt one with less that 300 on the engine for £10k
Seems like very good value to me, considering that you can pick up a recently rebuilt one with less that 300 on the engine for £10k
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lovely aircraft, tail dragger which will improve your handling and situational awareness.
Only problem is it really needs to be hangered. And if you have any problems with the airframe or skin requiring to be fixed it can be a pain to find someone that can do a good job fixing it.
Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of instructors qualified to do the differences training on them.
Ideally you would want a group with a range of experience on tail draggers along with someone that knows about the paper work side of things for ownership.
Again most tail dragger groups aren't interested in hour builders.
I have seen a few kids that have got in with a local owner who doesn't fly much and is more than happy to take the kid under their wing and watch them develop. But to find one of them your going to have to put the time in turning up at airfields. Offering to wash aircraft etc.
Only problem is it really needs to be hangered. And if you have any problems with the airframe or skin requiring to be fixed it can be a pain to find someone that can do a good job fixing it.
Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of instructors qualified to do the differences training on them.
Ideally you would want a group with a range of experience on tail draggers along with someone that knows about the paper work side of things for ownership.
Again most tail dragger groups aren't interested in hour builders.
I have seen a few kids that have got in with a local owner who doesn't fly much and is more than happy to take the kid under their wing and watch them develop. But to find one of them your going to have to put the time in turning up at airfields. Offering to wash aircraft etc.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of instructors qualified to do the differences training on them.
Last edited by foxmoth; 14th Jul 2013 at 06:12.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cambridge
Age: 27
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One year on - advice taken
mad_jock - part of your advice was to work on being different. One year on, and going through my PPRune history, I think I owe you some thanks. I took the advice and started my own business importing from China. I now make £200-£300 profit per month. I help the scouts gliding club once or twice a month. I help in a balloon chase crew in return for hot air balloon hours. Heck, I even do amateur photography work. It's been the most fun year of my life, so thank you.
Maybe I'll do another update this time next year
Maybe I'll do another update this time next year
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done, that will definitely stand out on your CV.
And it sounds like your enjoying it as well.
And you never know with that lot you might get a shot at being a BA cadet!!.
How's the flying coming along?
And it sounds like your enjoying it as well.
And you never know with that lot you might get a shot at being a BA cadet!!.
How's the flying coming along?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cambridge
Age: 27
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The flying is coming along very well - even after having to negotiate my first set of A-Levels and a case of mistaken identity (that almost landed me in unbelievable amounts of poop), I am one exam away from finally getting my license. My attempt at 'doing more' has also led to some very fun flights - the most notable being a flight in a Pressurised Centurion to 18000 feet.
I did, however, get a pretty bad knee injury following an 'eventful' landing sequence in a hot air balloon, which ended with me stopping a full 30 ft from the basket.
I would love to become a BA cadet for sure, but I have also been trying to have a more open mind regarding possible jobs in the future - Airlines, Cargo, Private Jets, Bush Flying - if you don't mind what you do, it's not nearly as difficult to get into the career - albeit still challenging!
Regards
Luke
I did, however, get a pretty bad knee injury following an 'eventful' landing sequence in a hot air balloon, which ended with me stopping a full 30 ft from the basket.
I would love to become a BA cadet for sure, but I have also been trying to have a more open mind regarding possible jobs in the future - Airlines, Cargo, Private Jets, Bush Flying - if you don't mind what you do, it's not nearly as difficult to get into the career - albeit still challenging!
Regards
Luke
Not sure how true this is - if you have the aircraft, then, certainly in the S UK, an instructor is easy enough to find - if you know nothing about the instructor I would ask what Tailwheel instructing they have done and also if they teach wheeler landings. What can be hard to find is a Tailwheel instructor with easy access to a suitable aircraft.
I've the right experience and qualifications, but have had to turn down a number of instructing tasks because I can't get my hands on a taildragger with the right combination of paperwork and controls.
(On which point, if there's anybody in the south of England who does have a training-suitable taildragger they'd be interested in leasing me by the hour for occasional instructing purposes, I'd love to hear from them.)
G
