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Does anyone use those iPhone Naviagation Apps

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Does anyone use those iPhone Naviagation Apps

Old 19th May 2013, 15:32
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Does anyone use those iPhone Naviagation Apps

There is an app on the appstore called AirNav, I downloaded it out of interest and well its pretty much a moving map for VFR navigation, but I won't use it.

I am interested if anyone uses them in the air, what is the accuracy like, with them, are they usable as a tertiary source to Dead Reckoning and feature following and Radio Navigation?

Also whats the legality of these things?
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Old 19th May 2013, 15:44
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but I won't use it.
Why ?

I've used ForeFlight on both the iPad and iPhone and that works a treat. Very accurate.
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Old 19th May 2013, 15:45
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The legality will be not to use for real world navigation ; (
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Old 19th May 2013, 15:49
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I used to use Air Nav Pro on my iPad / iPhone but as the developers added more features, it become slower and slower until the program would often crash when opening AIPs. However what really caused me to consign this program to the bin was the fact that, sporadically, the programmers would release an update which would then delete ALL your maps.

Ok, the maps weren't deleted, they were still on the iPhone / iPad BUT the links to them were gone and the only way to have the maps working again was by reinstalling all the maps. In one case, I was abroad and had to download 3GB of map data from their store because of their abject incompetence - 4 times this happened on various releases (never subsequent, always a few months apart) until I said enough.

From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use, however it works reasonably well if you have the maps / aips downloaded; also, the position of the unit in the plane will determine how accurate the software is - after all, if you have a high wing plane and the iPhone is mounted low in the cockpit, the chances are, it will lose the signal. I used to use an external GPS receiver but in the Archer, mounted to the yoke, the iPhone never lost a signal.

To conclude: software is ok, if only the programmers would stop issuing releases which then require you to reinstall your maps..... Legal? Not as the sole means of navigation, but it works well....
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Old 19th May 2013, 15:58
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This is the one I have, Its AirNav Standard, it seems pretty neat for airspace awareness as a secondary source and the Ireland charts and maps were free so it was only €6

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Old 19th May 2013, 16:09
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From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use
You ought to ask the source of that statement for a reference, because there isn't any

In VFR or IFR private-flight (non AOC) there is no concept of sole nav, primary nav, or any of the many similar concepts one often reads about.
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Old 19th May 2013, 17:31
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Quote:
From what I understand, the software is not a legal as the sole means of navigation, basically because the program / hardware has never been qualified for aviation use
You ought to ask the source of that statement for a reference, because there isn't any
In VFR or IFR private-flight (non AOC) there is no concept of sole nav, primary nav, or any of the many similar concepts one often reads about.
Towards the end of last year I had landed at an airfield in Germany when the Bezirksregierung came in to check on the Pilots who were flying - licences, medicals and the like. What they were also asking to see was the flight planning which included navigational material. One guy showed his iPhone with ANP, complete with Course preplanned; he was then informed that this was NOT suitable for use as the primary means of navigation......

Now, this might be a case of semantics - primary navigation in this case meaning a valid chart - but on it's own, Air Navigation was not considered by the inspectors of the BR suitable for flight without a second means of navigation - ie, an actual chart.
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Old 19th May 2013, 18:22
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That is down to their National Law. Later this year when Part NCO is adopted it states:
current and suitable aeronautical charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted;
Now what constitutes a suitable aeronautical chart?
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Old 19th May 2013, 18:35
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Here is a post which discusses this aspect of the German law.

It sounds like the German inspector was out of line, or at least did not make it clear what he thought the regulation was.
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Old 19th May 2013, 18:40
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That is down to their National Law. Later this year when Part NCO is adopted it states:
Quote:
current and suitable aeronautical charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted;
Now what constitutes a suitable aeronautical chart?
I posed this question to the guys from the BR because I use Flighplanner and print out a "trip kit" which includes PLOG, Charts and AIPs. I asked whether I needed to buy the newest ICAO charts even though I have them in digital format on my PC / Note. They said it doesn't even have to be an original ICAO / Jeppesen chart, it can also be a photocopy - or, in my case, a print out.

According to them, what it needs to be is relevant (a road map is obviously out) showing air space boundaries, frequencies and the like and must be current....

The question is, how they could determine whether my digital charts were actual or not from a print out ;-)
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Old 19th May 2013, 18:53
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Now, this might be a case of semantics - primary navigation in this case meaning a valid chart - but on it's own, Air Navigation was not considered by the inspectors of the BR suitable for flight without a second means of navigation - ie, an actual chart.
Steve, I bet this guy was let go and there was no fine or investigation because the actual law is in favor of the Air Navigation Pro user. The law (§ 3 3. DV Luft-BO) just says "current and suitable for the flight". This means that anything will do, as long as it is suitable and it's up to you to choose. The hurdles are pretty high for a judge to rule that your ANP is not suitable.

However, there is no way to fly with outdated maps, the above provision is very specific about that. Not even if nothing has changed!

Last edited by achimha; 19th May 2013 at 18:54.
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Old 19th May 2013, 18:59
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Now what constitutes a suitable aeronautical chart?
That is a typical example where a law/provision is unspecific because being specific is difficult/impossible/limiting. In this case one has to apply common sense of what is suitable (and it's basically in your discretion). If there is doubt, a court would have to do the hard work of establishing what is suitable.

Germany has had that "suitable" definition for maps for many years and to my knowledge there has never been the need for a higher level court to establish what is suitable.
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Old 19th May 2013, 19:33
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Peterh337, Achimha,

The question was asked by the pilot to the BR inspector why he considered that the ANP was not suitable - after all, the actual charts, aips were loaded on them.

The BR inspector pointed out that it is not in the realms of impossibility for the iPad / iPhone to fail - indeed, with the original iPad it was noted that they failed due to heat at altitude when the sun shone directly onto it ( I had this happen to me once ) - or the battery to fail, in such a situation the pilot has no means of navigation. Even with a charger connected, the unit could still fail without warning which was why the BR Inspector considered the ANP to be unsuitable because of a lack of redundancy for the technics.....

Therefore, as he considered the chart not suitable for navigation, he requested the pilot to copy a chart and take that along, which he did - irrespective of whether he used it or not. Now, you might care to argue with the BR, that the guy exceeded his remit - I would rather not wind them up the wrong way, I saw what happened to someone who did.......

Last edited by Steve6443; 19th May 2013 at 19:33.
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Old 19th May 2013, 19:38
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The BR inspector pointed out that it is not in the realms of impossibility for the iPad / iPhone to fail
Indeed but the law does not call for redundancy or fail proof systems. A paper map can be sucked out of the window. The law requires two spark plugs per cylinder but not two paper paps in the cockpit.

Now, you might care to argue with the BR, that the guy exceeded his remit
Indeed. The inspector was clearly telling BS and had little clue but in this particular situation, I would just say "yes officer, thank you for telling me, I did not know this before" and say to myself "what an..." and move on. Nothing happened in the above case which shows that he did not have a point, just wanted to feel important.
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Old 19th May 2013, 21:02
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I don't agree. Under EASA-NCO there is a phrase about navigation means, which says "availability has to be guaranteed" or something along those lines. The AMCs specifically go into the subject of digital charts and other digital data and specify that these may be used BUT you have to consider the case where your digital device fails.

So if said pilot relied on his electronic device exclusively, and had no suitable backup in case of failure, the German officer may well be right.

The "map sucked out the window" argument is mostly idiotic, as far as I'm concerned. In your average spamcan a lot has to go wrong for that to happen, and if you're flying an open cockpit, microlight or other aircraft where the risk is real, you already considered this and either have a backup solution or made sure it can't happen. In any case, an iPad can also be sucked out the window, or dropped, or whatever. But a paper chart doesn't have any chance of becoming unavailable due to some internal hardware or software failure, or overheating, or running out of battery charge, or any of the other problems present in electronic devices.

Looking at my personal experience, both in an aviation and in non-aviation contexts, the number of times an electronic device somehow failed and became unavailable, either temporary or permanently, is much, much higher than the number of times a piece of paper somehow failed. So the concern of the authorities about failure of electronic navigation equipment and the need for a suitable backup are, IMO, entirely justified.

Last edited by BackPacker; 19th May 2013 at 22:05.
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Old 20th May 2013, 00:25
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I,m no expert but here is my understanding of using nav apps on your iphone/ipad.

I have an old ipad i beleive it is a version 2 with no gps chip, so i have bought a garmin glo gps receiver (which is about the size of a half packet of fags) the 2 work well together, however my iphone 5 does have gps capability but i beleive it does not allow the garmin glo when connected via blue tooth to override the phones internal GPS functions with the more accuare GLO device, so there is not much point in using the GLO with the iphone 5,

I plan to use the ipad 2 connected to the garmin glo for skydemon flightplans loaded on the ipad. I have a panel mounted Garmin 496 in the plane that can accept skydemon flightplans but you have to remove it from the airgizmo panel to access the micro usb connector which is a pain in the ass, so i will use the glo ipad 2 combo for vfr nav
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Old 20th May 2013, 01:44
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Bought an iPad mini, now the paper chart stays in the bag where it belongs. That was the dark ages. I use foreflight here in the states and I can't say enough good about it. I have it on my iPhone too, which would work in a pinch but is a bit small.
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Old 20th May 2013, 05:56
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I don't agree. Under EASA-NCO there is a phrase about navigation means, which says "availability has to be guaranteed" or something along those lines.
You're missing the point. EASA NCO is not the current law even though it will most likely be at some point. So for now national regulations apply. I was referring to the German national law which might be different from other legislations. The German law does not prescribe any form of map nor does it mandate redundancy nor declare paper to be superior to electronic devices.

Where would EASA NCO prefer paper over digital devices and where does it require two map sources? It only talks about navigational equipment and in case navigation cannot be performed using visual landmarks requires the pilot to be able to safely conduct the flight in case one item of the navigational equipment fails. Navigational equipment is linked to the flight plan so it can hardly apply to a map. In my understanding is says you shall have e.g. a VOR in addition to a GPS for e.g. VMC on top.

Last edited by achimha; 20th May 2013 at 06:12.
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Old 21st May 2013, 23:10
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I noticed that today a UK version of an app we have had down here for a few years has been released... UKRunways is the UK version of Ozrunways ...you guys will love it! Has a lot more than just maps and its almost idiot proof as I can even use it! Have met the developers and they are great guys that were only too happy to help with any questions! Give it a look!
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Old 22nd May 2013, 10:32
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I noticed that today a UK version of an app we have had down here for a few years has been released... UKRunways is the UK version of Ozrunways ...you guys will love it! Has a lot more than just maps and its almost idiot proof as I can even use it! Have met the developers and they are great guys that were only too happy to help with any questions! Give it a look!
Can't see it on the App Store..... this is probably my biggest gripe with Apple - everything is regional. Live in Germany? Can't access UK content like UK magazines.
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