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Ex-Military Jet Trainers

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Ex-Military Jet Trainers

Old 25th Apr 2013, 16:56
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Ex-Military Jet Trainers

I'd like to get an idea of the types of ex-military small (2 seat) jet trainers which are available to buy and fly privately and which are reliable and relatively (compared with other small jets) economical.

Any thoughts welcome.
Yellow & Blue Baron is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2013, 17:46
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Economical? You must be feeling flush. There's a reason they're giving them away, because they'll burn 120gals of Jet A1 per hour, all of them, minimum.

You're options are:

Jet Provost
Fouga Magister
Casa/Hispano Saeta H200
Iskra
L-39
Moraine Saulnier Paris Jet

Out if these the Magister and the Provost are probably one of the cheaper to run as parts are plentiful. The Fouga is supposedly a very docile aircraft that won't bite.

Slightly more high performance:

L-29
Folland Gnat
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 18:58
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Thanks for the response.

Do you have any opinions on the Siai Marchetti S211 and also the main differences between the L29 Delfin and Albatross?
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 19:08
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There is a growing population of T5's and T38's and they fly like a dream from what I am told.

Check out these guys.


Last edited by Hell Man; 25th Apr 2013 at 19:09.
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 19:10
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There was a Hunter on the market a few years ago for Yak-52 money. Not bad apart from the fuel burn....












.... and the fixed costs













.... and the maintenance.
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 19:49
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Jet

I have been lucky enough to fly the L39 a couple of time and must say it was a delight to fly. I just don't know enough to give advice on which is best but good luck and I might be able to introduce you to some people who can help. I will say though the L29 is very different to the L39.

Pete
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 20:03
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Originally Posted by AdamFrisch View Post
Economical? You must be feeling flush. There's a reason they're giving them away, because they'll burn 120gals of Jet A1 per hour, all of them, minimum.
You mean 120 US Gal/hr while taxing for takeoff. When you push the power lever up fuel flow will go to at least 300 gal/ hr.

I got type rated in the L29 and we averaged 700 liters per 40 min sorti. I tell every one that the easiest way to think about it is that the engine drinks a half glass of Guinness worth of jet fuel Every Second
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 20:35
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But of course do not forget the ultimate the Lightning vertical to 40 K in a blink with afterburners on.
What is the fuel burn in those ?

Pace
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 20:42
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If I recall correctly from my F-4 days, the fuel burn in full A/B was around 33 lb per second....
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Old 25th Apr 2013, 20:59
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BEagle

Wasn't that per engine not total ?

Pace

If I remember the F6 from start up with a full after burner take off and climb was empty after 30 mins hence the need for a tanker to continue to the intercept.
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Old 26th Apr 2013, 00:51
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When I was little, as we watched the fighter jets flying down the valleys we used to count 10, 20, 30, 40... more or less the cost in pounds of flying the things, which is currently about £8 per second. Obviously not a training jet, but even these are pretty stupendously expensive to run.

I once met a Tornado pilot who told me that he had done 2000 hours on Tornados - when I pointed out to him that so much flying would cost £60,000,000 he was quite shaken.

So who flies jets as a hobby - training or otherwise? A few names that I've come across are those of the Googleigarchs and the SpaceX founder Elon Musk. So does Larry Ellison, founder of Oracle. Rich people, in a word.
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Old 26th Apr 2013, 05:45
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So who flies jets as a hobby - training or otherwise? .... Rich people, in a word.
abgd,

It's not just rich people. It's also enthusiasts like me who have a bit (well, quite a lot ) of spare cash to blow on buying life-long memories.

So what do I choose - 40 minutes in a Vampire or 10 hours in a Cessna 172?

No contest - the Vampire every time. I've had three Vampire flights in the last year. The most recent one included climbing a volcano and aerobatics using the top as a reference. I then flew a 250kt run-in and break at 100', followed by several circuits and a full-stop on a short runway. To be fair, my instructor was handling the flaps and gear but I did all the rest, with appropriate coaching.







A very happy but poorer IFT
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Old 26th Apr 2013, 08:31
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Thanks India 4 Two - that's the right approach!

Also, when syndicated the purchase and ongoing maintenance costs are further reduced so its mainly about the fuel bill. Having access to a light jet is not so much about putting in hundreds of hours as it is about gaining and appreciating a new dimension of flight.

Does anyone know if the Stratos 714 is still going ahead?
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Old 26th Apr 2013, 20:32
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To me the appeal of the fast jet would be very low level following the contours of the terrain below.
Sadly you cannot legally do that in a private non military operation unless you go over the sea or totally uninhabited areas.
having said that many young kids dreamed of being a fighter pilot and a lot of lifes highs is fulfilling chidhood dreams

Pace
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Old 27th Apr 2013, 11:50
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Pace,

Do you have an iPhone? Get X Plane 10. A stunningly realistic flight simulator, with multiple aircraft to choose from.

I've had a lot of fun whizzing around the Austrian Alps at 700 kts low-level in an F22. It certainly concentrates the mind and sharpens your reflexes. There is also a combat option, which is fairly trivial with an AIM-9 but very challenging using guns. I've learned the hard way, many times, about target fixation at low-level!

Back to real life, 250 kts at 500' is pretty exciting for a spam-can pilot and in NZ, if you have a co-operative ATC, you can indulge in what is known euphemistically as a "handling display".

so its mainly about the fuel bill
YBB,

Yes, but at 1000 litres per hour, you still need deep pockets!

Last edited by India Four Two; 27th Apr 2013 at 11:56.
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Old 27th Apr 2013, 12:05
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Yes, but at 1000 litres per hour, you still need deep pockets!
Crikes that's worse than both engines on the citation I fly

Do you have an iPhone? Get X Plane 10. A stunningly realistic flight simulator, with multiple aircraft to choose from.
I've had a lot of fun whizzing around the Austrian Alps at 700 kts low-level in an F22. It certainly concentrates the mind and sharpens your reflexes. There is also a combat option, which is fairly trivial with an AIM-9 but very challenging using guns. I've learned the hard way, many times, about target fixation at low-level!
I used to do a heck of a lot with flight sim, Flight, Pro Pilot as well as flight unlimited which although old was very immersive.
X plane I never had! Then I had a fast PC with all the controls! Change of address over the last 6-7 years into London flats and I dropped the lot being confined to lap tops.
I am considering a Mac computer rather than Lap Top and X plane will be top of the list


Pace

Last edited by Pace; 27th Apr 2013 at 13:41.
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Old 28th Apr 2013, 19:03
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Crikes that's worse than both engines on the citation I fly
Pace,
Yes, but probably more smiles per hour than in your Citation.

The Vampire's owner refers to the DH Goblin being aptly named, "because it gobbles fuel".

The Vampire is pretty much a flying-fuel tank. Nine wing tanks, all feeding into a collector box at the bottom of the fuselage tank. 1500 litres in total! Here's some of my money going into the wing tanks:


I thoroughly approve of your choice of a Mac, but I would recommend a Powerbook laptop. You can always get an external monitor, if a 15" screen is not big enough, but the portability is great. I have a 17" Powerbook which I find ideal. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't make them anymore.

The joystick of choice is the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. You don't need rudder pedals if you use 'auto-rudder'. The stick can be rotated about its vertical axis if more rudder is required.

Just for the record though, X Plane is available for Macs, Windows, Linux, iOS and Android. Here's a screen shot of the iPhone X Plane 10 in action. Round a blind corner in the Tyrol at 871 kts!:


It is a fantastic app, with a very realistic flight model. You rotate the whole iPhone to control pitch and roll. Much more fun than Tetris or Angry Birds, but I do get funny looks when I'm 'flying' in a public place!
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Old 29th Apr 2013, 10:25
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Does anyone know the airframe life limit on the T-38?
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Old 29th Apr 2013, 14:27
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If you're in Sweden , you'll have a hard job operating one of these things from what I've been told.
Your best bet would probably be an L-39 on the Estonia register as its JAR EASA compliant, but check with your civil aviation people first.

The cheapest jet to operate in terms of fuel burn is the Mk3 Provost at around 600 litres an hour !

Still a lot of fun , once you've flown a jet you'll find it very difficult to climb back into a Cessna !
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