Saving the IMC. Did we do enough? Can we do more?
Join Date: Nov 2001
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I am one of those who used an IMCR extensively and regularly and upgraded to a IR to get access to class A. In my experience the issue is not the level of qualification, it's the currency and the confidence that brings.
I could have done all the things I do with my IR with my IMCR because I do it a lot, so my flight planning, RT and aircraft operation are all reasonably confident.
The big secret in long distance light aircraft travel is that VFR is hard, difficult and complicated and IFR isn't.
Whatever debate takes place on this the fundamental issue is this. In a climate where the weather is not all that predictable an accessible and affordable proper IMC qualification that permits travel under IFR in IMC and includes the ability to use approach procedures to get back safely to the ground is a safety essential not an optional extra.
Knowing how to use the OBS facility on a GPS is a critical requirement too.
I could have done all the things I do with my IR with my IMCR because I do it a lot, so my flight planning, RT and aircraft operation are all reasonably confident.
The big secret in long distance light aircraft travel is that VFR is hard, difficult and complicated and IFR isn't.
Whatever debate takes place on this the fundamental issue is this. In a climate where the weather is not all that predictable an accessible and affordable proper IMC qualification that permits travel under IFR in IMC and includes the ability to use approach procedures to get back safely to the ground is a safety essential not an optional extra.
Knowing how to use the OBS facility on a GPS is a critical requirement too.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Knowing how to use the OBS facility on a GPS is a critical requirement too.
Tim
Join Date: Jan 2001
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TMMorris
When the IMCR is used in anger by very experienced PPLs it can be far more demanding than flying IFR following a nice SID then a cruise then a nice star or more likely to be pulled off and vectored onto a nice ILS.
The hardcore IMCR pilot often took off into equally low cloudbases, never got on top battling in the cloud and turbulence low level and to top it often had a home made approach often to quite low limits based on GPS with hopefull conventional navaids as a back up.
Of course never me
Pace
When the IMCR is used in anger by very experienced PPLs it can be far more demanding than flying IFR following a nice SID then a cruise then a nice star or more likely to be pulled off and vectored onto a nice ILS.
The hardcore IMCR pilot often took off into equally low cloudbases, never got on top battling in the cloud and turbulence low level and to top it often had a home made approach often to quite low limits based on GPS with hopefull conventional navaids as a back up.
Of course never me
Pace
Join Date: Jul 2008
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If you look around the flying clubs in the Cambridge area of the UK you will find a group of PPLs who make up "The IMC Club"
It was my good fortune to be invited to join them on one of their fly outs last year. Although I gained an IMC rating in the early 1990s it was hardly used and had long expired, so I flew the legs that were VFR. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole fly out and experienced real and well flown IMC on a number of occasions and soon realised just how much enthusiasm was going on here.
It didn't take me long after this to decide to re validate my own IMCr and I received my "new" rating from the CAA a few days ago.
It is a well known fact that many PPLs give up soon after gaining their license and I think this is because they feel the challenge is finished, but the IMC course is not easy and constitutes a further exiting challenge. Then by joining a group who actually fly IMC on purpose, a pilot can enjoy a new and exciting aspect of aviating that at the same time hones the skills of instrument flying, which when actually needed in earnest will then be a perfectly safe procedure. So whilst the IMCr was designed to be a "get out of jail free" card for PPLs, it can make private flying a lot more fun too!
It was my good fortune to be invited to join them on one of their fly outs last year. Although I gained an IMC rating in the early 1990s it was hardly used and had long expired, so I flew the legs that were VFR. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole fly out and experienced real and well flown IMC on a number of occasions and soon realised just how much enthusiasm was going on here.
It didn't take me long after this to decide to re validate my own IMCr and I received my "new" rating from the CAA a few days ago.
It is a well known fact that many PPLs give up soon after gaining their license and I think this is because they feel the challenge is finished, but the IMC course is not easy and constitutes a further exiting challenge. Then by joining a group who actually fly IMC on purpose, a pilot can enjoy a new and exciting aspect of aviating that at the same time hones the skills of instrument flying, which when actually needed in earnest will then be a perfectly safe procedure. So whilst the IMCr was designed to be a "get out of jail free" card for PPLs, it can make private flying a lot more fun too!
So whilst the IMCr was designed to be a "get out of jail free" card for PPLs, it can make private flying a lot more fun too!
Rest assured that the CAA continues to press the stubborn €urocrats and will leave no avenue unexplored in order to achieve the continuance of IMCr availability for pilots of the future.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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A total divergence from the topic, for a moment, but I can't help but notice that if Beagle makes ONE more post, that will make a round total of 20,000 posts.
And I also agree - the IMCR is NOT a get out of jail card to be played only in extremis, it is a rating that can (and should) be used in anger; like any other skill-set, the more you use it, the better you will become.
And I also agree - the IMCR is NOT a get out of jail card to be played only in extremis, it is a rating that can (and should) be used in anger; like any other skill-set, the more you use it, the better you will become.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Some interesting arguments. If I'm flying across more than my local zone I always go IFR, in my experience limited though it is I've found I'm more liable to get a zone crossing flying IFR. I use my IMC privileges regularly because
a. with the weather we've had in the past year or so there wouldn't have been much flying otherwise.
b. There's not much point in having it if you don't keep on top of it.
c. Odd though it may seem I like instrument flying in a single engine spammy with no autopilot, it's a different challenge and mentally stimulating. At no time have I ever felt that I wasn't in control of the situation; put that down to excellent instruction in the first place.
a. with the weather we've had in the past year or so there wouldn't have been much flying otherwise.
b. There's not much point in having it if you don't keep on top of it.
c. Odd though it may seem I like instrument flying in a single engine spammy with no autopilot, it's a different challenge and mentally stimulating. At no time have I ever felt that I wasn't in control of the situation; put that down to excellent instruction in the first place.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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OK BEagle, I admit that "Get out of Jail Free" is just a figure of speech loaned to all those words you said it was meant to be and I will take 100 lines. But who cares, what it was really meant for was to enable the training of PPLs to get the aircraft down when in a difficult situation due to weather. I think we've all been there at some time and it was one scare like this that prompted me to get it in the first place years ago. I'm sure that it has saved many lives and as such is, and has been a huge success.
I will also go as far as to say that even if EASA do not sanction anything like the IMCr in the future, then regardless of this, instructors should still teach the syllabus here in the UK. Because if it ended up being a choice of dying or breaking the law, I know what I would choose!
So there BEagle, I invite you to comment on my reply, but not necessarily for you to take issue with my post, but certainly so I can be the one to take you to 20,000 posts!!!
I will also go as far as to say that even if EASA do not sanction anything like the IMCr in the future, then regardless of this, instructors should still teach the syllabus here in the UK. Because if it ended up being a choice of dying or breaking the law, I know what I would choose!
So there BEagle, I invite you to comment on my reply, but not necessarily for you to take issue with my post, but certainly so I can be the one to take you to 20,000 posts!!!
Join Date: May 2001
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The differences between FAA and JAA IRs are irrelevant. The FAA have lower tolerances in some areas, and higher tolerances in other areas - partial panel for example. The format of the FAA IR is "on the fly" - as soon as I took off, the examiner slapped a post-it note over the AI and DI and most of the test was partial panel.
Anyway, I'd advise anyone to do the IMCr now as it will be issued as an IR(R) on your EASA license. I am sure there will be an interesting conversion route to the EIR too, meaning that you could pretty well end up with FULL IR privileges in the UK (Fly IFR in class A and shoot approaches - due to the EIR and IR(R) ) as well as enroute IFR throughout the world.
This is cool, and as much as most people need. It'd make an interesting court case, someone with an FAA IR in an N reg plane with EIR and IR(R) shooting an approach in Euroland....I wonder how that would pan out.....!
Anyway, I'd advise anyone to do the IMCr now as it will be issued as an IR(R) on your EASA license. I am sure there will be an interesting conversion route to the EIR too, meaning that you could pretty well end up with FULL IR privileges in the UK (Fly IFR in class A and shoot approaches - due to the EIR and IR(R) ) as well as enroute IFR throughout the world.
This is cool, and as much as most people need. It'd make an interesting court case, someone with an FAA IR in an N reg plane with EIR and IR(R) shooting an approach in Euroland....I wonder how that would pan out.....!
Join Date: May 2001
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UK wouldn't touch it with a barge pole unless they thought you were going to pled guilty. I suspect the number of instrument approaches flown without a valid ticket is relatively high in the UK amongst the multicrew IR fraternity. If nothing happens nobody cares.
I know if the wx got a bit ****ty I wouldn't hesitate in going IMC if I thought it was the safer option. Not likely to happen though as if I am in a spam can I wouldn't be trying to fly in marginal wx these days. If its un-forecast there is not a lot they can do about it.
France you would be in the slammer and in front of the sheriff the next day. A wacking great fine would be imposed and you plane impounded until you pay it. And it would takes years and years of appeals and you more than likely wouldn't get the fine back and it would cost more than the fine anyway.
I know if the wx got a bit ****ty I wouldn't hesitate in going IMC if I thought it was the safer option. Not likely to happen though as if I am in a spam can I wouldn't be trying to fly in marginal wx these days. If its un-forecast there is not a lot they can do about it.
France you would be in the slammer and in front of the sheriff the next day. A wacking great fine would be imposed and you plane impounded until you pay it. And it would takes years and years of appeals and you more than likely wouldn't get the fine back and it would cost more than the fine anyway.
Join Date: May 2001
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How could you be bunged in the slammer? You are legal in all respects to operate the machine IAW IFR world wide, unless you happen to be a European living in Europe. They'd have to prove your residency - next to impossible in the space of a few hours. And then the "residency" test would have to be tried in court - is the operator resident in EU land or not?!
What would happen to a Norwegian who did this?
What would happen to a Norwegian who did this?
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Bunged in the slammer is the solution to all things paper work related in France if they find an issue. They know fine you will be off sharpish and won't return. So they hold you until its sorted.
Then they stick you in the local sheriffs court PDQ. And then fine is delivered. You can bitch and complain as much as you like but you won't get the aircraft back until you pay it or complete the legal appeals process which takes years. Once you pay it to get the aircraft back you can kiss good bye to the money. I think there is an option to take it to a higher court but the aircraft stays where it is and you are open to a larger fine so take your choice.
It doesn't really matter what nationality you are apart from French.
Then they stick you in the local sheriffs court PDQ. And then fine is delivered. You can bitch and complain as much as you like but you won't get the aircraft back until you pay it or complete the legal appeals process which takes years. Once you pay it to get the aircraft back you can kiss good bye to the money. I think there is an option to take it to a higher court but the aircraft stays where it is and you are open to a larger fine so take your choice.
It doesn't really matter what nationality you are apart from French.
