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TMG rating with EASA PPL

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TMG rating with EASA PPL

Old 25th Feb 2013, 18:49
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Question TMG rating with EASA PPL

Hi forum,

I'm quite confused about the EASA legislation, and the more I read it, the worse it gets! I'd be happy about some guidance from fellow sufferers.

I have an EASA PPL(A) from the UK CAA. According to FCL.205.A, you can fly TMG with a PPL(A):

"FCL.205.A PPL(A) Privileges

(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations."


However, in various places in CAP804 and Part-FCL a "TMG rating" is mentioned, even in conjunction with a PPL(A).

In fact, it seems you can only credit TMG hours toward the revalidation of a PPL(A) (i.e., SEP rating) if you do hold the ominous TMG rating:

"FCL.740.A Revalidation of class and type ratings aeroplanes

(2) When applicants hold both a single-engine piston aeroplane-land class rating and a TMG rating, they may complete the requirements of (1) in either class, and achieve revalidation of both ratings."


So how does one get a TMG rating with a PPL(A) (SEP rating)? Is differences training / logbook endorsement sufficient, or a full-blown course and checkride at an ATO?

Thanks,

George

P.s.: Is there an official list of TMG (to set them apart from SLMG)?
Zonkor is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2013, 19:01
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The old UK CAA PPL's came with a SLMG rating attached. To get a TMG rating you had to "unfreeze" the SLMG rating by having a checkout in something like a Falke or Grob, send off the proof + 70 and you'd have TMG rating. You could then fly either SEP or TMG and cross credit the hours to keep both ratings current.
Touring Motor Gliders have fixed engines rather than "pop up" ones but can be flown on an SLMG or TMG rating.

SS
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 19:37
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SEP & TMG are type ratings that can be added to the PPL(A); whatever type you do your training & test in will be the type that comes with your PPL(A). The chances are that you hold an EASA PPL(A) with an SEP(land) type rating - check p4 of the EASA licence.

You need the appropriate type rating to be PIC. If you hold an SEP & TMG type rating the hours in both can be combined for the purposes of rating revalidation by experience; if you revalidate by test a proficiency check in either revalidates both type ratings.

To add a type rating, FCL.725 applies, so a course at an ATO (effectively differences training) followed by a skills test.

SLMG was a CAA term. As far as EASA are concerned, a TMG has a non-retractable engine & propellor. If the engine & prop fold away it's a sailplane & you need a sailplane licence to fly it & a self-launch endorsement to take off using the engine.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 19:45
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Thanks for the helpful replies. I'm slowly starting to make sense in interpreting the law.

So FCL.205.A basically (implicitly) means, I can only fly TMG if I obtained the TMG rating. The SEP rating does not allow to fly TMG under a PPL(A). (Makes sense of course, but the formulation of FCL.205.A suggested otherwise without further knowledge.)

What's your recommendation for an ATO? And much flight training would such a SEP -> TMG course typical take?

Thanks,

George

P.s.: You meant "class rating" instead of "type rating" right?

Last edited by Zonkor; 25th Feb 2013 at 19:46.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 19:59
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Zonkor you are confusing different elements.

You need 3 things to fly an aircraft:

1) A Pilot's License which grants you certain privileges.
(PPL privileges are as you quoted from FCL.205)

(NB: A TMG is one thing - A sailplane with a non-retractable engine,
Aeroplanes in the sentence you quote could mean many things - SEP(Land),
SEP(Sea), MEP(Land), etc all needing different Ratings)

2) A qualification to fly a certain Class or Type of Aircraft
You say you have an SEP (presumably Land) Rating
So this is the only Class of aircraft you can fly.

3) A medical valid for whichever License Privileges or Rating Qualifications
you wish to exercise.

If you wish to fly a different Class or Type of Aircraft then a new
qualification (eg TMG Rating) will be required and, as PS says,
Part-FCL.725 applies.

Only once a License Holder has both SEP and TMG Ratings does
Part_FCL say the Revalidation requirements can be met on one, the other
or shared between both Ratings.

Last edited by Level Attitude; 25th Feb 2013 at 20:10.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 20:09
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The SEP is a Class Rating not a Type rating as is the TMG.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 20:14
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Thanks, now it's quite clear.

Do you have any suggestion for a place to do the TMG rating?

Thanks,

George
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 21:18
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Most gliding clubs can put you in touch with a SLMG instructor so you can get your SLMG rating and then fly motor gliders. Finding a TMG examiner though is far more difficult. The aircraft you will be able to fly are the same, but unless the bit of paper says TMG the hours can't be credited towards revalidation of your SEP. I have a TMG rating that has expired and need to find a TMG examiner to renew it.

SS
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 21:19
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There's a list on the BGA website of places to do your TMG rating:

British Gliding Association >> Instructors >> Motor Gliding - Instructing & Examining

ifitaint...
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 07:12
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Oxfordshire Sport Flying at Enstone do a lot of this sort of conversion training - PPL(SEP) to TMG, NPPL(SSEA) to SLMG, glider pilot to SLMG etc. They have a local TMG examiner and a rather nice Dimona motor glider with a tricycle undercarriage . Tel: 01608 677208.

Typical training time is around 5 hours, less if you are used to air brakes and wobbly prop.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 11:46
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P.s.: You meant "class rating" instead of "type rating" right?
Apparently I do, thank-you. I still have no idea what a variant is.


The trouble with TMGs is that most of the rentable ones are at gliding clubs & you have to be a member to fly them. Not an insurmountable problem but the BGA is not yet an ATO, never was an RTF, so any flying or testing done at a BGA club will not count for the purposes of FCL.725. You can still learn to fly a TMG at a gliding club but they won't (yet) be able to add a TMG rating to your EASA PPL.

I know of only 2 RTFs that offer motor glider training outside of the BGA (during the transition period RTFs count as ATOs.) Click on ifitaint's link, scroll down to power examiners and look for the names Ray Brownrigg (Oxfordshire Sportflying) & Clive Stainer (The MotorGlider Club - although the link by his name points to an SEP training club, he also runs a TMG club at Hinton.)

The Oxfordshire Sportflying website refers exclusively to NPPL SLMG training, & the BGA table shows that Ray Brownrigg is an NPPL SLMG examiner, so you need to be clear with them that you want to add a TMG to an EASA licence before signing up. Clive Stainer is listed as a JAR TMG examiner so is now presumably an EASA TMG examiner.

Section 5 of the NPPL SLMG syllabus describes the SLMG specific exercises, although I'm surprised it doesn't mention use of the airbrakes on approach. If you do the training in something as simple & slow as a T61 Venture/Falke, it will take you no time at all. Grob 109s, Dimonas & modern Falkes are a little more complex.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 12:05
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Bicester Gliding Centre appear to be hiring out their Motor Falke at just 69 per hour, including fuel and instructor:

NPPL SLMG Training Courses
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 11:41
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TMG rating:add to PPL or SPL?

Dear forum,

Is there any difference in privileges or requirements between the following two scenarios under Part-FCL, assumed the pilot has both a PPL(A) and an SPL:

1. Adding a TMG rating to the PPL(A)
2. Adding a TMG extension to the SPL

For instance, do TMG hours still count towards SEP land recency under scenario 2?

Thanks,

George
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 20:13
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Well I recieved my replacement licence back a couple of days ago, but all mention of my TMG rating was missing? I sent them an email and got this reply today ...

Dear Mr Manley

Thank you for your email.

TMG ratings are no longer endorsed on UK licences since the transition
to EASA.

The majority of motor gliders are classed as both SLMG and TMG and may
therefore be flown on a valid SLMG rating.

You can find this information on the GINFO aircraft register.

GINFO Database Search | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require more information.


Kind Regards

Licensing & Training Standards
Civil Aviation Authority, Safety Regulation Group
Licensing & Training Standards, Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South, West Sussex, RH6 0YR, UK

Is that right? The standard SLMG rating was always on the UK licence anyway. I had to do a test and pay for my TMG rating. That allowed me to use my TMG hours to keep both my SEP and TMG ratings current. I seem to have lost that privilege??? Surely it can't just be removed from my licence? What happens if I apply for a EASA licence ... will it automatically be added back? This just doesn't seem right to me?

SS
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Old 16th Apr 2013, 13:57
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Well I recieved my replacement licence back a couple of days ago
What happens if I apply for a EASA licence
Since, from 17 Sept 2012, the CAA only issue EASA Licences do you
not already have one?
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Old 16th Apr 2013, 17:46
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TMG is an EASA rating; SLMG is a National rating.

If you have a current TMG when you convert to an EASA licence, it should be entered on the front page of your EASA licence in Section XII, with a Certificate of Revalidation date duplicated from the licence which you are converting from.

If the TMG is expired, it will be on the reverse of the licence as a Rating previously held.

The CAA got my TMG wrong also.

ifitaint...
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Old 16th Apr 2013, 18:56
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Since, from 17 Sept 2012, the CAA only issue EASA Licences do you
not already have one?
I had a pre Jar licence, so no automatic transfer to an EASA licence. I was intending to apply for an EASA after I's renewed my ratings. They sent me a replacement UK licence but in the EASA format.
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Old 29th Apr 2013, 06:40
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Fully qualified place to get your TMG (Touring Motor Glider Rating)

Suggest checking out Brass Neck Aviation. Phil and Christine can sort it out for you, they have both the equipment and the examiner, and actually understand the EASA requirements.

Also they do taildragger training.
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Old 29th Apr 2013, 10:19
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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TMG rating

Hi Guys,
I am new to PPRuNe, a friend just emailed me your thread to reply.
TMG is an EASA rating. If you have SEP on your license already, you can do differences training and a skills test to add the rating. Of course when you send your application off to the CAA you will then receive back a nice shiny EASA license, but it will take some time to process.
Make sure your medical and other ratings have plenty of validity left on them so they don't run out in the meantime.
Then you can revalidate both SEP and TMG together as one rating (12 hours in last 12 months, one hour instructor flight, etc.)
Remember that if you want to carry passengers in either type you need to have logged 3 take offs and landings on type(or in this case, class) in the previous 90 days.
Also if you miss your revalidation date, you will have two skills tests to do to get both ratings back.
Simple, isn't it?
Next, SLMG. This can be added to an NPPL through differences training, but since 17th September 2012, you must take a skills test as well.
If someone says otherwise and "signs you up", beware the wrath of the CAA if you have an accident or incident.
The rules changed 17th Sept with the adoption of EASA last year, although in fact the Air Navigation Order always said you need a skills test to add a rating to your license.
Finally holders of the older style UK PPL may already have SLMG printed on it.
If you have never validated this, or it is now invalid, you still have to do a skills test to validate. Again, don't let anyone tell you that you only need differences training.
Hope this helps.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 13:46
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I'm struggling with this one.

I've got a UK PPL, with SLMG, and I had SLMG differences signed off in 2011. In the not so old days, 70 would have got me a TMG rating - but I haven't done that yet.

When I transition to EASA do I need a TMG or SLMG? (If I read the last post correctly, it's TMG - but a previous poster said that the CAA claimed not to be putting that class rating on the licenses).

Looking up the motor glider I fly on G-INFO, I discover it's classed as an SLMG.

So when I transition to an EASA license (imminent), do I apply for an SLMG or TMG rating, and what do I need to get it?

(And I've looked through all the relevant CAA documents I can find - they are about as clear as mud).

Paul
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