Flying Down the Thames
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Flying Down the Thames
What is people's opinion on flying down the Thames in an SEP, towards London City airport, whilst LCY is closed on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning?
There was last a thread on this a couple of years back, but I wanted to know if anyone had any more recent experience.
Plenty of people at my flying club do it frequently but I've never really thought about doing it myself, I've always worried about the land clear requirement.
However, I was thinking that if I stayed as high as the base of the Class A allows (in this case just below 2,500ft) then I'd have a pretty good chance at gliding back towards the green land east of London, as long as I don't venture too far West. I guess in a real emergency you also have the runway at London City airport? Or would this be a court case/likely prison scenario?
Any other information i.e. who is best to call and ask for the transit of the Class D would be greatly appreciated.
And before you shoot me down, I have not decided to do this yet! Just gathering information and opinions...
P.S. On second thoughts, they might not allow you to transit the Class D as high as 2,500ft as you'll likely have airliners approaching Heathrow inside the Class D at 2,000ft or so if they're on the ILS..
There was last a thread on this a couple of years back, but I wanted to know if anyone had any more recent experience.
Plenty of people at my flying club do it frequently but I've never really thought about doing it myself, I've always worried about the land clear requirement.
However, I was thinking that if I stayed as high as the base of the Class A allows (in this case just below 2,500ft) then I'd have a pretty good chance at gliding back towards the green land east of London, as long as I don't venture too far West. I guess in a real emergency you also have the runway at London City airport? Or would this be a court case/likely prison scenario?
Any other information i.e. who is best to call and ask for the transit of the Class D would be greatly appreciated.
And before you shoot me down, I have not decided to do this yet! Just gathering information and opinions...
P.S. On second thoughts, they might not allow you to transit the Class D as high as 2,500ft as you'll likely have airliners approaching Heathrow inside the Class D at 2,000ft or so if they're on the ILS..
Last edited by All-The-Nines; 1st Dec 2012 at 12:42.
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I've always worried about the land clear requirement.
Over LCY, LHR arrivals are generally at around 5000 ft, even when LCY is closed.
Last edited by Tay Cough; 1st Dec 2012 at 12:50.
P.S. On second thoughts, they might not allow you to transit the Class D as high as 2,500ft as you'll likely have airliners approaching Heathrow inside the Class D at 2,000ft or so if they're on the ILS..
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Do it with an instructor if you are concerned. Better still take a twin and go all the way to the houses of parliament.
We used to do it all the time out of biggin. Great fun.
We used to do it all the time out of biggin. Great fun.
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Better still go in a helicopter and fly the along heli-routes, all the way through to Bagshot mast, near Camberley.
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I'm not concerned about doing it (as in I'm happy to call up Thames Radar and ask for a transit) I'm just questioning the legalities along with any recent experience of others on this board of doing it in an SEP.
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I dont think if the information is elsewhere on this forum, but there are threads on Euroga.org and UKGA.com where there is a freedom of information document published on this exact topic.
From what I recall, the essence of the information is that London City controllers will clear you into their zone as it is not their job to police you based on your aircraft and requirements to be able to glide clear, but thats not to say you should go in. The Thames is apparently not defined as a suitable land clear destination, but it also seems that one would be unlikely to be prosecuted unless you actually endangered yourself or someone/something else. There was a case where someone was in the zone and ran out of fuel and just managed to land at the airport, and that annoyed some people was the subject of the debate within the FOI request.
Its up to you whether to chance it, and it's true you will get some good photos. I dont think you can get a definite yes/no on this.
From what I recall, the essence of the information is that London City controllers will clear you into their zone as it is not their job to police you based on your aircraft and requirements to be able to glide clear, but thats not to say you should go in. The Thames is apparently not defined as a suitable land clear destination, but it also seems that one would be unlikely to be prosecuted unless you actually endangered yourself or someone/something else. There was a case where someone was in the zone and ran out of fuel and just managed to land at the airport, and that annoyed some people was the subject of the debate within the FOI request.
Its up to you whether to chance it, and it's true you will get some good photos. I dont think you can get a definite yes/no on this.
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The Air Navigation Order defines a congested area as being ‘any area of a city, town or settlement which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes’
Originally Posted by piperarcher
the essence of the information is that London City controllers will clear you into their zone as it is not their job to police you based on your aircraft and requirements to be able to glide clear
Originally Posted by bookworm
the London City class D is likely to be "not above 2000 ft"
Originally Posted by All-The-Nines
you'll likely have airliners approaching Heathrow inside the Class D at 2,000ft or so if they're on the ILS
Originally Posted by 18greens
Do it with an instructor if you are concerned
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My thinking is that if I'm at +2000ft, I should be able to get a couple of miles within the zone (i.e. approx half way to London City) and still be able to land clear to the fields close to the Dartford bridge (or make the runway at London City) should it all go horribly wrong at the very worst moment.
I'm not overly concerned at this stage about actually over-flying London City airport itself, it'd just be nice to venture a little bit closer to the City than you're usually allowed on any other day of the week. I think from 2-3 miles away you should still have a pretty good view...
Can I expect Thames radar on 132.700 to be particularly busy or will they most likely be twiddling their thumbs early on a Sunday morning?
I'm not overly concerned at this stage about actually over-flying London City airport itself, it'd just be nice to venture a little bit closer to the City than you're usually allowed on any other day of the week. I think from 2-3 miles away you should still have a pretty good view...
Can I expect Thames radar on 132.700 to be particularly busy or will they most likely be twiddling their thumbs early on a Sunday morning?
Over the Thames
I think you will find that the precident of this situation has already been recorded in Court,and that the Thames comes into the same arena as :- Parks,Sports fields,and other areas open to the public situated in built up area's.
The situation is different in the take off / landing case,but an overflight of a built up area in a single is always going to be difficult to justify,and indeed the description 'of a suitable place' anywhere is open to many variations that you may not want to explore from the 'dock'.
The situation is different in the take off / landing case,but an overflight of a built up area in a single is always going to be difficult to justify,and indeed the description 'of a suitable place' anywhere is open to many variations that you may not want to explore from the 'dock'.
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The point is entirely the land clear rule.
Many of us recall the popular transit down the Lea valley over City and out the other side. The argument was there was always plenty of water based opportunities to ditch in the valley, the Thames and surprisingly City south is not too built up. If it goes silent up front and you ditch who knows what view the Courts might take. In yester year I have lost count of the number of times I did the run down the valley, in more recent times I have tended to only go that way in a twin - although I am not entirely sure why. Running up the Thames form the QE2 to City and back would not unduly worry me at all either with the appropriate clearance if City were open or other wise if not.
To be fair although the Lea valley is quite fun and interesting the navigation north is tight over the top of Panshanger leaving Stansted to the east, and I doubt it significantly reduces the distance compared with going the other side of Stansted, but each to their own.
Many of us recall the popular transit down the Lea valley over City and out the other side. The argument was there was always plenty of water based opportunities to ditch in the valley, the Thames and surprisingly City south is not too built up. If it goes silent up front and you ditch who knows what view the Courts might take. In yester year I have lost count of the number of times I did the run down the valley, in more recent times I have tended to only go that way in a twin - although I am not entirely sure why. Running up the Thames form the QE2 to City and back would not unduly worry me at all either with the appropriate clearance if City were open or other wise if not.
To be fair although the Lea valley is quite fun and interesting the navigation north is tight over the top of Panshanger leaving Stansted to the east, and I doubt it significantly reduces the distance compared with going the other side of Stansted, but each to their own.
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who is best to call and ask for the transit of the Class D would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by 007helicopter; 2nd Dec 2012 at 06:36.
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Can you be done for the "land clear" rule, when in fact nothing went wrong and you just flew in and flew out again? Would be pretty hard for a court to prove you could not have "landed clear" wouldn't it (in the same manner as only a pilot can tell the in flight visibility)? And you'd have to be reported and investigated in the first place.
I imagine if you ditched in the Thames this would be another matter entirely, but really what are the chances of having to ditch in the Thames unless you are really unlucky?
Sounds like a fun trip to do on a boring sunday morning
I imagine if you ditched in the Thames this would be another matter entirely, but really what are the chances of having to ditch in the Thames unless you are really unlucky?
Sounds like a fun trip to do on a boring sunday morning
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Would be pretty hard for a court to prove you could not have "landed clear" wouldn't it (in the same manner as only a pilot can tell the in flight visibility)?
I think it would be pretty trivial for the prosecution to show, based on your radar track, that an engine failure would have resulted in you not being able to land clear for a significant portion of the flight, and this is really all that this is about.
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You Honour,
There is 6000' in a nautical mile. It is 6nm from the restricted area EGR159 to the eastern edge of the class D airspace. LCY is 4.9nm from the edge of the airspace. I am flying at 2400' and my aeroplane has a glide ratio that exceeds 10:1.
This means I can glide for 4.0 miles from 2400'. At no time am I more than 4.0 miles from a suitable landing area - LCY or outside the Class D zone (and outside of the congested area). Damyns Hall is 7.2nm from LCY, so half way into the zone I can glide to LCY or Damyns Hall.
So you see your honour, I planned the flight taking into account Rule 5 and the ability to glide clear in the event of an engine failure.
There is 6000' in a nautical mile. It is 6nm from the restricted area EGR159 to the eastern edge of the class D airspace. LCY is 4.9nm from the edge of the airspace. I am flying at 2400' and my aeroplane has a glide ratio that exceeds 10:1.
This means I can glide for 4.0 miles from 2400'. At no time am I more than 4.0 miles from a suitable landing area - LCY or outside the Class D zone (and outside of the congested area). Damyns Hall is 7.2nm from LCY, so half way into the zone I can glide to LCY or Damyns Hall.
So you see your honour, I planned the flight taking into account Rule 5 and the ability to glide clear in the event of an engine failure.
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If your aircraft's performance does indeed always allow you to glide clear, than by all means go ahead and do it, but keep in mind that if this is not the case it will be just as easy for the prosecution to prove otherwise. 
And then there is plenty of room for interpretation as to what a congested area and an area suitable for landing might be, your interpretation might not always match that of the presiding judge, in which case you might find yourself out of options.
I believe the general consensus is that in a small plane there is a roughly 50% chance of surviving a ditching unscathed(short term, long term depends a lot on circumstances such as Thames vs. North Sea etc.), which for me means that it can never be the primary option in case of forced landing.
Ciao,
Dg800
And then there is plenty of room for interpretation as to what a congested area and an area suitable for landing might be, your interpretation might not always match that of the presiding judge, in which case you might find yourself out of options.
Assuming that most SEPs have fixed undercarriage, have you ever practised ditching one?
Ciao,
Dg800
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...of course you could always pull the chute
