Buying an Aircraft "Howto"
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Buying an Aircraft "Howto"
I can't find any suitable shares a my local airfield. I don't want to look further afield so I'm considering the option of starting a group myself. I know a few people that might be interested. The trouble is I know nothing about purchasing an aircraft in the UK.
How do I go about getting someone to inspect a plane to give me an idea of whether it represents good value and an idea of how much it might need spending on maintenance? If I was buying a car I could get the RAC or AA to inspect it. Who offers a similar service for aircraft?
How do I go about getting someone to inspect a plane to give me an idea of whether it represents good value and an idea of how much it might need spending on maintenance? If I was buying a car I could get the RAC or AA to inspect it. Who offers a similar service for aircraft?
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Almost any maintenance company or licensed engineer would be willing to do a pre-buy inspection.
If you ask the people most likely to be your chosen maintainers, then they will have an incentive to gain business and would want to avoid the embarassment of recommending a dud.
If it's an LAA type, then you should sort out a willing local LAA inspector and ask them to do the pre-buy.
You'll find it's a lot easier to buy a plane and then form a group than to get a group together to buy jointly.
If you ask the people most likely to be your chosen maintainers, then they will have an incentive to gain business and would want to avoid the embarassment of recommending a dud.
If it's an LAA type, then you should sort out a willing local LAA inspector and ask them to do the pre-buy.
You'll find it's a lot easier to buy a plane and then form a group than to get a group together to buy jointly.
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I have bought a few light aircraft and here is my humble opinion on the matter.
1. Do your homework on the costs, (the real costs, not wishful thinking)
2. Deciding on what model and category can be a tough decision, define what the mission for the aircraft will be now, and just as importantly, what the mission/use will be a few years down the road i.e. purely for touring or advanced training etc. Do not buy a plane just because you "like the style/design" of it. mission profile is fundamental.
3. Valuing. is an art, due to the numerous variables i.e. seller motivation, model popularity and availability and your negotiating skills. However you can get a guide by looking at the prices listed on places like trade-a-plane or the controller for comparison.
4. Reputable mechanics are relatively easy to source for a pre-buy inspection, however, firstly, do your own homework once you have decided on the model if its a category A production aircraft go on the FAA or airframe/engine/prop manufactures website and download all service bulletins, then you AND the mechanic go thru the airframe and engine logs and read them from start to finish and verify all routine and mandatory service has been performed and by whom. and look for things that just don't look right in the chronological entries.
5. Try to find out about the history of the aircraft that will not be in the log books such as, has it really been hangared? look thru the old maintenance invoices and see where it used to be based and visit the airfield and ask around about the plane, low airframe or engine time over a long period can be as negative as high times.
Good luck
1. Do your homework on the costs, (the real costs, not wishful thinking)
2. Deciding on what model and category can be a tough decision, define what the mission for the aircraft will be now, and just as importantly, what the mission/use will be a few years down the road i.e. purely for touring or advanced training etc. Do not buy a plane just because you "like the style/design" of it. mission profile is fundamental.
3. Valuing. is an art, due to the numerous variables i.e. seller motivation, model popularity and availability and your negotiating skills. However you can get a guide by looking at the prices listed on places like trade-a-plane or the controller for comparison.
4. Reputable mechanics are relatively easy to source for a pre-buy inspection, however, firstly, do your own homework once you have decided on the model if its a category A production aircraft go on the FAA or airframe/engine/prop manufactures website and download all service bulletins, then you AND the mechanic go thru the airframe and engine logs and read them from start to finish and verify all routine and mandatory service has been performed and by whom. and look for things that just don't look right in the chronological entries.
5. Try to find out about the history of the aircraft that will not be in the log books such as, has it really been hangared? look thru the old maintenance invoices and see where it used to be based and visit the airfield and ask around about the plane, low airframe or engine time over a long period can be as negative as high times.
Good luck
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Piperboy, from mere and pure interest as a potential future buyer, what is your experience number-wise with the aircraft you have bought? Is there an ideal range of total airframe or engine time preferred or disregarded?
Just interested.
Just interested.
Bought a few gliders but only one aircraft......that was in 1982. Buy an old one, love cherish and fly it, and after thirty years you have a vintage aircraft, it would appear. Mind you, it still costs more than hiring unless you do reasonably high hours, but I think it's worth it.
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I have bought a number of aircraft over the years and helped others in the purchase of theirs.
Once a decision has been made about what you want the aircraft to do (is it for touring, VFR or IFR, farm strip visits, aerobatics, number of seats, etc) and you have found the aircraft which ticks all the boxes then the first thing for me (after of course the visual inspection and check on its flying paperwork) is a test flight (assuming it has a current permit or CofA) I normally try to fly the CAA test schedule dating back to the days of Star Annuals, its structured and helps you not miss anything. It's surprising how much information such a flight will give you in terms of how the aircraft is performing, how well it climbs and what it stalls like (is it rigged correctly etc)
It also allows you to systematically check everything works, and if it does not it gives you room to negotiate with the owner. I would normally then go through the log books and see if anything obvious jumps out at me.
If the aircraft still looks worthwhile I would then invest in an engineer going over the log books and aircraft for me.
I have never had a genuine owner object to going through this process, if the owner does object then walk away - he is perhaps trying to hide something from you and it may well end up costing you a lot more than anticipated.
A good starting point for the test flight is reading~: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1455/Check...-April2009.pdf
Just remember, the flight is for your information only, its to give you some idea of how well the aircraft performs rather than as an official test flight. The use of the schedules gives you some method in how you check the aircraft. If you don't feel able to fly the test safely to the suggested limits through experience then get a more experienced pilot to do it for you and go along as the observer
If you do the test flight schedule accurately, (then if you buy the aircraft) you will have some baseline figures for performance and as time goes on should the performance decrease in any way you will be able to quantify the change and it will help you and whoever maintains the aircraft decide what remedial work or investigation (if any) needs doing.
Once a decision has been made about what you want the aircraft to do (is it for touring, VFR or IFR, farm strip visits, aerobatics, number of seats, etc) and you have found the aircraft which ticks all the boxes then the first thing for me (after of course the visual inspection and check on its flying paperwork) is a test flight (assuming it has a current permit or CofA) I normally try to fly the CAA test schedule dating back to the days of Star Annuals, its structured and helps you not miss anything. It's surprising how much information such a flight will give you in terms of how the aircraft is performing, how well it climbs and what it stalls like (is it rigged correctly etc)
It also allows you to systematically check everything works, and if it does not it gives you room to negotiate with the owner. I would normally then go through the log books and see if anything obvious jumps out at me.
If the aircraft still looks worthwhile I would then invest in an engineer going over the log books and aircraft for me.
I have never had a genuine owner object to going through this process, if the owner does object then walk away - he is perhaps trying to hide something from you and it may well end up costing you a lot more than anticipated.
A good starting point for the test flight is reading~: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1455/Check...-April2009.pdf
Just remember, the flight is for your information only, its to give you some idea of how well the aircraft performs rather than as an official test flight. The use of the schedules gives you some method in how you check the aircraft. If you don't feel able to fly the test safely to the suggested limits through experience then get a more experienced pilot to do it for you and go along as the observer
If you do the test flight schedule accurately, (then if you buy the aircraft) you will have some baseline figures for performance and as time goes on should the performance decrease in any way you will be able to quantify the change and it will help you and whoever maintains the aircraft decide what remedial work or investigation (if any) needs doing.
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Buy cheap buy twice
Doing your homework is vital, if we look at a very simple aircraft like the Cessna 152 most people on this forum will tell you the value should be in the £19-21K
area but a quick look at the aircraft that fit this price range will find a lot of under maintained aircraft with high time engines, old avionics, shabby interiors, fading paint........Oh there will also be a small leak in one of the brakes that should not be too much of a problem.
So how much to get the aircraft into a reasonable condition ?
Overhauled engine £14,000
New paint. £6000
Basic avionics £6000 ( new NAV/COM & mode S transponder )
Seat recovering & carpets £1000
Oh the small leak from the brake turns out to be a crack in the McCaully brake unit and those are no longer avalable so it is a new wheel & brake unit kit at £2000.
So all of a sudden with IRO £29k to find to put your £19 k steal into some sort of working order you wish you had gone to the joker who wanted £35k for an aircraft with most of this work done but you passed that one up because the flying club bar flys said it was way over price !
Oh and now the maintenance company tells you that the McCaully propellor has failed one of the string of AD's and you will have to buy a new Sensench prop kit because McCaully don't make the prop any more............Say didn't the £35k aircraft have one of the low maintenance Sensenich props?........ Another £2.2 k goes west !
My advice is to find the aircraft type that you like and then go to a maintenance company who operate the type, talk to the engineers NOT the salesman and buy near the top of the market, otherwise you will find out just how true the Old Arab proverb " cheap is not so cheap" is.
area but a quick look at the aircraft that fit this price range will find a lot of under maintained aircraft with high time engines, old avionics, shabby interiors, fading paint........Oh there will also be a small leak in one of the brakes that should not be too much of a problem.
So how much to get the aircraft into a reasonable condition ?
Overhauled engine £14,000
New paint. £6000
Basic avionics £6000 ( new NAV/COM & mode S transponder )
Seat recovering & carpets £1000
Oh the small leak from the brake turns out to be a crack in the McCaully brake unit and those are no longer avalable so it is a new wheel & brake unit kit at £2000.
So all of a sudden with IRO £29k to find to put your £19 k steal into some sort of working order you wish you had gone to the joker who wanted £35k for an aircraft with most of this work done but you passed that one up because the flying club bar flys said it was way over price !
Oh and now the maintenance company tells you that the McCaully propellor has failed one of the string of AD's and you will have to buy a new Sensench prop kit because McCaully don't make the prop any more............Say didn't the £35k aircraft have one of the low maintenance Sensenich props?........ Another £2.2 k goes west !
My advice is to find the aircraft type that you like and then go to a maintenance company who operate the type, talk to the engineers NOT the salesman and buy near the top of the market, otherwise you will find out just how true the Old Arab proverb " cheap is not so cheap" is.
Last edited by A and C; 14th Oct 2012 at 08:35.
First thing after a thorough pre-flight type examination is to go through the log books. Only if they're O.K would I bother with a flight, or the expence of an engineer - who is ESSENTIAL before you make a final offer. I looked at one aircraft, where a recent required check had been omitted. The engineer said it had been done, but not entered in the logbook. I would have accepted if he'd said it had been missed, but after that response walked away.
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If it is a certified aircraft then "The Aviation Consumer" contains a wealth of knowledge across a large number of types. None of the costs are relevent to the UK - especially post Part M but the accident record, mods, Ads etc are all gathered together - there is simply nothing elese even vaguely comparable.
THe key though is to first work out why you want an aircraft and what you are realistically going to do with it (by realistically start with what you presently do - grand plans tend to remain grand plans and buying an aircraft which fits the gerand plan usually means it does not suit the remaining 99% of its ownership period!).
That leads you to a aircraft usage pattern and then you need to identify the potential types which might fit that. If you use the experience of this forum do try and be specific - otherwise the suggestions will be useless.
After that most of the stuff above kicks in.
THe key though is to first work out why you want an aircraft and what you are realistically going to do with it (by realistically start with what you presently do - grand plans tend to remain grand plans and buying an aircraft which fits the gerand plan usually means it does not suit the remaining 99% of its ownership period!).
That leads you to a aircraft usage pattern and then you need to identify the potential types which might fit that. If you use the experience of this forum do try and be specific - otherwise the suggestions will be useless.
After that most of the stuff above kicks in.
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Fattony
you have already had some very good advice. A couple of things to think of is the regulation regime and pilots licenses.
EASA type aircraft are well documented but in future can only be flown by pilots that have an EASA pilots license.
Homebuilt types are Annex II aircraft and are administered by the LAA. These aircraft can be flown by pilots with an EASA license or a UK NPPL or PPL license but there are some restrictions on operations of those aircraft ie VFR no IMC, night or commercial operations etc.
There is another type of aircraft that is Annex II but operated on a CofA which allows pilots with an EASA license to fly them unrestricted in IMC at night etc. Pilots with a UK PPL can also fly them unrestricted, and pilots with a UK NPPL can fly them but within the restrictions of their license.
For a group owned aircraft you may want to consider such an aircraft.
For a two seat aerobatic/touring aircraft the Airtourer fits the bill nicely. There are a couple for sale in the UK now, look at the usual web sites for further details.
Always get an engineer to check a prospective aircraft over, the money will be well spent. They will scrutinise the log books and find things that the average pilot will know nothing about. They know the right questions to ask and what to look out for. Don't be put off by aircraft with high time engines or airframes. Engines can run 'on condition' for many many hours and years past TBO, but if you use the aircraft for hire or reward you will need to change the engine at TBO. Some aircraft do have higher maintenance costs than others especially if it has a lot of AD's (Airworthiness Directives) and SB (Service Bulletin) to be checked or complied with or 'lifed' components that need changing.
As a sole owner/operator for the last 16 years I can say that it is a rewarding if expensive hobby. Group ownership is a good way to go to get aircraft availability as reasonable cost.
you have already had some very good advice. A couple of things to think of is the regulation regime and pilots licenses.
EASA type aircraft are well documented but in future can only be flown by pilots that have an EASA pilots license.
Homebuilt types are Annex II aircraft and are administered by the LAA. These aircraft can be flown by pilots with an EASA license or a UK NPPL or PPL license but there are some restrictions on operations of those aircraft ie VFR no IMC, night or commercial operations etc.
There is another type of aircraft that is Annex II but operated on a CofA which allows pilots with an EASA license to fly them unrestricted in IMC at night etc. Pilots with a UK PPL can also fly them unrestricted, and pilots with a UK NPPL can fly them but within the restrictions of their license.
For a group owned aircraft you may want to consider such an aircraft.
For a two seat aerobatic/touring aircraft the Airtourer fits the bill nicely. There are a couple for sale in the UK now, look at the usual web sites for further details.
Always get an engineer to check a prospective aircraft over, the money will be well spent. They will scrutinise the log books and find things that the average pilot will know nothing about. They know the right questions to ask and what to look out for. Don't be put off by aircraft with high time engines or airframes. Engines can run 'on condition' for many many hours and years past TBO, but if you use the aircraft for hire or reward you will need to change the engine at TBO. Some aircraft do have higher maintenance costs than others especially if it has a lot of AD's (Airworthiness Directives) and SB (Service Bulletin) to be checked or complied with or 'lifed' components that need changing.
As a sole owner/operator for the last 16 years I can say that it is a rewarding if expensive hobby. Group ownership is a good way to go to get aircraft availability as reasonable cost.
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Thank you all for such genuinely helpful advice. And I'm impressed the thread didn't degenerate into another LAA/permit/CofA debate! 
The "buy cheap buy twice" advice rings true, as does "you'll find it's a lot easier to buy a plane and then form a group" although these two things mean that I might be looking at spending more than I had wanted to. The info on ADs, SBs and log books is very useful. I've come to the conclusion that I will need to take someone along who is more knowledgeable than me.
To those that were asking about mission and aircraft type, my original question was more about HOW to buy an aircraft rather than WHAT aircraft to buy...but I'll expand on that anyway:
I'm a very low hours, newly qualified PPL. <This is where everyone groans and calls me a dreamer> My main desire for a share is flexibility and availability although a lower hourly rate would also be nice but isn't as important. As the moment I don't have a "mission profile" as the majority of my flying up until now has been training. What I would like to do is gain some more experience by flying to places I haven't visited before. At some point I'd like to fly across the water (Channel Islands, Ireland and Europe) because, let's face it, I can drive over land. Having the flexibility to visit places and stay for a few days is difficult when hiring club aircraft.
I want to get myself a share in an aircraft so that I don't fall into the rut of flying to airfields that are 30 mins away from base for a sandwich. I'd love to join an existing group as that would be much easier but I've yet to find a suitable one locally. There are shares around but they seem to be in faster, complex aircraft and I don't think I'm at that stage in my piloting capability yet. Either that or they're based further afield. There is the added complication that some groups won't accept a low hours PPL despite my willingness to accept the higher insurance excess.
I'll keep looking out for an existing group to join while investigating purchase options. When it comes down to it, the advice here seems to suggest that I'll end up spending more than I had intended
The "buy cheap buy twice" advice rings true, as does "you'll find it's a lot easier to buy a plane and then form a group" although these two things mean that I might be looking at spending more than I had wanted to. The info on ADs, SBs and log books is very useful. I've come to the conclusion that I will need to take someone along who is more knowledgeable than me.
To those that were asking about mission and aircraft type, my original question was more about HOW to buy an aircraft rather than WHAT aircraft to buy...but I'll expand on that anyway:
I'm a very low hours, newly qualified PPL. <This is where everyone groans and calls me a dreamer> My main desire for a share is flexibility and availability although a lower hourly rate would also be nice but isn't as important. As the moment I don't have a "mission profile" as the majority of my flying up until now has been training. What I would like to do is gain some more experience by flying to places I haven't visited before. At some point I'd like to fly across the water (Channel Islands, Ireland and Europe) because, let's face it, I can drive over land. Having the flexibility to visit places and stay for a few days is difficult when hiring club aircraft.
I want to get myself a share in an aircraft so that I don't fall into the rut of flying to airfields that are 30 mins away from base for a sandwich. I'd love to join an existing group as that would be much easier but I've yet to find a suitable one locally. There are shares around but they seem to be in faster, complex aircraft and I don't think I'm at that stage in my piloting capability yet. Either that or they're based further afield. There is the added complication that some groups won't accept a low hours PPL despite my willingness to accept the higher insurance excess.
I'll keep looking out for an existing group to join while investigating purchase options. When it comes down to it, the advice here seems to suggest that I'll end up spending more than I had intended
Just to add, and I'm sure you know.
Beyond first purchase cost etc. is operating cost, both fixed & variable.
Hangarage availability (& cost) is one of the biggest factors.
An LAA/BMAA (one man) wing folding machine can be a help for reducing space demand & cost, increasing access to many more strips & like minded aviators. They usually have seats for two and a modestly useable touring cruise speed, with reliable Rotax 912 of 80 or 100 h.p. power. There are usually a few types on the second hand market. [Try A-FORS].
DIY maintenance can increase knowledge of the a/c, at least for basics, e.g. oil/filter change, cleaning, inspection to a schedule.
mike hallam.
Beyond first purchase cost etc. is operating cost, both fixed & variable.
Hangarage availability (& cost) is one of the biggest factors.
An LAA/BMAA (one man) wing folding machine can be a help for reducing space demand & cost, increasing access to many more strips & like minded aviators. They usually have seats for two and a modestly useable touring cruise speed, with reliable Rotax 912 of 80 or 100 h.p. power. There are usually a few types on the second hand market. [Try A-FORS].
DIY maintenance can increase knowledge of the a/c, at least for basics, e.g. oil/filter change, cleaning, inspection to a schedule.
mike hallam.
Last edited by mikehallam; 15th Oct 2012 at 17:09.
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Not much to add, but if you do find yourself interested or looking at something slightly more exotic, i.e. not a Piper or Cessna, then it's always pretty good advice to join or get in contact with a type specific club or organisation for that aircraft. These people inevitable will point you in the direction of a mechanic or someone with great knowledge about that type. Let them do the inspection. Type specific knowledge is invaluable and will end up saving you money and time.
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Hi Fattony great to hear you want to move your flying beyond the local bimble, which in itself is a joy .
The main limitation I've seen of people ending up in a flying rut is really their own reservations about going distances whether it be weather decisions, airspace, what happens if I can't get to the place I'm going. It can be quite daunting but extremely worthwhile and rewarding.
As a new PPL I wouldn't be too afraid of complex type aircraft that are a bit faster, the downside of these guys is really running costs and occasional runway limitations but generally after a good bunch of hours of training you ought to be able to pick up some of the nuances of flying a machine with an adjustable prop, retractable gear or fancy engine set up.
That said, as a newcomer to owning it might be good to look for a group with an inexpensive aircraft that's easy to maintain. There is a pretty large learning curve and quite often you find it a bit overwhelming without someone to guide you in the difference between "important" and "nice to do", particularly someone who does not have a commercial interest in it! For you I would definitely advise focussing on getting into an existing, well run group.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't do similar due diligence, the last thing you want is to own a share in a shed that looks nice. Personally I think the way anyone should approach buying looks a bit like this.
My first advice would be research as many different types of aircraft as you can, generally owners and pilots LOVE to talk about their steeds so even just hanging out in the club or having a wander round the apron talking to them has it's own value. Many pilots can get hung up on a certain type or turning their nose up at some aircraft without having any experience at all, microlights, fabric, composite, all metal, LAA, CofA aircraft have their own upsides and downsides and it's worth knowing what they might be. You may be very surprised in how much fun you can have in what looks like a very ordinary machine.
If possible go along to the LAA, BMAA and club fly ins, generally there will be a large variety of aircraft and many owners are more than happy to take you for a wee shotty in their machines, at least they are at our fly in.
The reason I suggest the above before you look at mission and budget is because you're inexperienced and getting to know about different types of flying is very important.
Next, budget and mission. Both are not exclusive your budget constraints may well dictate missions you can perform and you MUST temper one with the other but your mission is essential otherwise how can you choose which aircraft you want? There are so many and there are rarely machines that can do everything so you need to pick a few that are good at what you really want.
When you work out your budget, be very careful about stretching what you reasonably can afford, you want to have a big gap so you can easily cover problems. I've seen too many groups fall to pieces on costs because one or a few can't afford what needs doing.
So now you have an idea of how much you want to spend, what you want to do and which aircraft can do it. Only now can you realistically approach the actual aircraft you're going to buy. When choosing one, I consider a few things, coming here for advice once you've done the above is no bad thing, there's a heap of experience.
1)Resale How easily will I be able to shift on my share or entire aircraft, are there limitations imposed by the group on who or when I can sell? How desirable is the aircraft? If I look at it from the outside, is it something that people are likely to want? Does the visible condition match it's relative value? Do not discount the colour of the aircraft here, I've seen some lovely machines sit waiting for a buyer because they were a disgusting shade of brown or green.
2) Engine and Airframe hours. You cannot get these back, particularly airframe hours. Higher hour machines will cost significantly less but you may have some nasty surprises waiting for you that even a pre sale inspection wont find. Even so, a well maintained machine will last a long time and remember an engine with 1000 hours left on the engine if looked after could last you more than 10 years so there's no need to stress TOO much about hours. If you're buying into a group engine funds only really come into play when it flies frequently. If a plane flies 50 hours a year it may not be important. Ex flying school machines need to be cheap as hell before they're worth buying, they've had heavy use but generally good maintenance but the airframe itself wont be as nice as it could be and the interior is more than likely buggered.
3) What do you want to do to it and what has already been done. An experienced engineer will be able to guide you on this, aircraft often have Airworthiness Directives that need doing or you may find you need to change the radio/transponder in a year or so to comply with local regs. Big jobs paint/interior/engine will give you headaches and that may not be worth the effort. Find one that is knowledgeable about the aircraft type you're looking at, not being able to find one locally will tell you a lot about what support you can get once you've bought the machine. I would advise strongly against buying a machine that you're not able to get maintenance for locally, the EASA CofA regs are strict and it's expensive to take on a new type to your maintenance approvals.
4) Existing owners diligence. Logbooks, effort, oil changes, attitudes, cleanliness of the aircraft, the actual advert itself (a full ad says they care a 3 liner with no pictures says they don't to me anyway). Much like when you buy a classic or sports car you'll be able to tell a lot about how much care the owner has put in by the logbooks and their knowledge of the machine and what has been going on with it. It's normally pretty obvious. If you hear a lot of "don't worry about that" then you should consider very carefully walking away.
5) storage, if you have a fabric machine, you need a hangar. Ideally you would put your plane in a hangar anyway - it makes a massive difference. timing will be hard with this because you need the space but you may have to pay for a space without actually putting a plane in it. Check out what your local fields can do for you, you may find here that the type/length of runway available at a field you can get hangarage at limits your mission.
6) Patience, it's a waiting game, the right machine will come up but you may wait a year or two for it and have patience. You can absolutely guarantee what will happen when you settle for something close that the right machine pops up on afors.com a week later. If you do end up wanting an LAA machine then the rally at Sywell often has machines for sale and it's a great place to check them out, the magazine has plenty of ads. I cannot say this often or loud enough, TAKE YOUR TIME!.
7) If you've made it this far then I don't have much more to say but remember your plane is unlikely to be able to do everything you want, renting isn't as bad an option as you think, consider very carefully that you do want to own.
Owning IS great fun, I prefer the LAA way because I like doing the work as well as the flying but it takes time to do it. The CofA route is also good because many decisions are taken out of your hands and you have some pretty brilliant machines to choose from but the cost is relatively brutal. Some of the newish BMAA machines are also spectacular, you may also find that what you really want is a gyro!
Get out there and go look at some machines, fly them, enjoy come back and report how you're getting on, I'm genuinely interested to know how this turns out for you.
great to hear you want to move your flying beyond the local bimble, which in itself is a joy .The main limitation I've seen of people ending up in a flying rut is really their own reservations about going distances whether it be weather decisions, airspace, what happens if I can't get to the place I'm going. It can be quite daunting but extremely worthwhile and rewarding.
As a new PPL I wouldn't be too afraid of complex type aircraft that are a bit faster, the downside of these guys is really running costs and occasional runway limitations but generally after a good bunch of hours of training you ought to be able to pick up some of the nuances of flying a machine with an adjustable prop, retractable gear or fancy engine set up.
That said, as a newcomer to owning it might be good to look for a group with an inexpensive aircraft that's easy to maintain. There is a pretty large learning curve and quite often you find it a bit overwhelming without someone to guide you in the difference between "important" and "nice to do", particularly someone who does not have a commercial interest in it! For you I would definitely advise focussing on getting into an existing, well run group.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't do similar due diligence, the last thing you want is to own a share in a shed that looks nice
. Personally I think the way anyone should approach buying looks a bit like this.My first advice would be research as many different types of aircraft as you can, generally owners and pilots LOVE to talk about their steeds so even just hanging out in the club or having a wander round the apron talking to them has it's own value. Many pilots can get hung up on a certain type or turning their nose up at some aircraft without having any experience at all, microlights, fabric, composite, all metal, LAA, CofA aircraft have their own upsides and downsides and it's worth knowing what they might be. You may be very surprised in how much fun you can have in what looks like a very ordinary machine.
If possible go along to the LAA, BMAA and club fly ins, generally there will be a large variety of aircraft and many owners are more than happy to take you for a wee shotty in their machines, at least they are at our fly in
.The reason I suggest the above before you look at mission and budget is because you're inexperienced and getting to know about different types of flying is very important.
Next, budget and mission. Both are not exclusive your budget constraints may well dictate missions you can perform and you MUST temper one with the other but your mission is essential otherwise how can you choose which aircraft you want? There are so many and there are rarely machines that can do everything so you need to pick a few that are good at what you really want.
When you work out your budget, be very careful about stretching what you reasonably can afford, you want to have a big gap so you can easily cover problems. I've seen too many groups fall to pieces on costs because one or a few can't afford what needs doing.
So now you have an idea of how much you want to spend, what you want to do and which aircraft can do it. Only now can you realistically approach the actual aircraft you're going to buy. When choosing one, I consider a few things, coming here for advice once you've done the above is no bad thing, there's a heap of experience.
1)Resale How easily will I be able to shift on my share or entire aircraft, are there limitations imposed by the group on who or when I can sell? How desirable is the aircraft? If I look at it from the outside, is it something that people are likely to want? Does the visible condition match it's relative value? Do not discount the colour of the aircraft here, I've seen some lovely machines sit waiting for a buyer because they were a disgusting shade of brown or green.
2) Engine and Airframe hours. You cannot get these back, particularly airframe hours. Higher hour machines will cost significantly less but you may have some nasty surprises waiting for you that even a pre sale inspection wont find. Even so, a well maintained machine will last a long time and remember an engine with 1000 hours left on the engine if looked after could last you more than 10 years so there's no need to stress TOO much about hours. If you're buying into a group engine funds only really come into play when it flies frequently. If a plane flies 50 hours a year it may not be important. Ex flying school machines need to be cheap as hell before they're worth buying, they've had heavy use but generally good maintenance but the airframe itself wont be as nice as it could be and the interior is more than likely buggered.
3) What do you want to do to it and what has already been done. An experienced engineer will be able to guide you on this, aircraft often have Airworthiness Directives that need doing or you may find you need to change the radio/transponder in a year or so to comply with local regs. Big jobs paint/interior/engine will give you headaches and that may not be worth the effort. Find one that is knowledgeable about the aircraft type you're looking at, not being able to find one locally will tell you a lot about what support you can get once you've bought the machine. I would advise strongly against buying a machine that you're not able to get maintenance for locally, the EASA CofA regs are strict and it's expensive to take on a new type to your maintenance approvals.
4) Existing owners diligence. Logbooks, effort, oil changes, attitudes, cleanliness of the aircraft, the actual advert itself (a full ad says they care a 3 liner with no pictures says they don't to me anyway). Much like when you buy a classic or sports car you'll be able to tell a lot about how much care the owner has put in by the logbooks and their knowledge of the machine and what has been going on with it. It's normally pretty obvious. If you hear a lot of "don't worry about that" then you should consider very carefully walking away.
5) storage, if you have a fabric machine, you need a hangar. Ideally you would put your plane in a hangar anyway - it makes a massive difference. timing will be hard with this because you need the space but you may have to pay for a space without actually putting a plane in it. Check out what your local fields can do for you, you may find here that the type/length of runway available at a field you can get hangarage at limits your mission.
6) Patience, it's a waiting game, the right machine will come up but you may wait a year or two for it and have patience. You can absolutely guarantee what will happen when you settle for something close that the right machine pops up on afors.com a week later. If you do end up wanting an LAA machine then the rally at Sywell often has machines for sale and it's a great place to check them out, the magazine has plenty of ads. I cannot say this often or loud enough, TAKE YOUR TIME!
.7) If you've made it this far then I don't have much more to say but remember your plane is unlikely to be able to do everything you want, renting isn't as bad an option as you think, consider very carefully that you do want to own.
Owning IS great fun, I prefer the LAA way because I like doing the work as well as the flying but it takes time to do it. The CofA route is also good because many decisions are taken out of your hands and you have some pretty brilliant machines to choose from but the cost is relatively brutal. Some of the newish BMAA machines are also spectacular, you may also find that what you really want is a gyro!
Get out there and go look at some machines, fly them, enjoy come back and report how you're getting on, I'm genuinely interested to know how this turns out for you
.
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Make sure the autopilot actually works and that the propellor log is available to view. By actually works I am referring to alt hold and following the heading bug. My M20J had the lights working on the Century 21 AP , but it needed a twenty grand rewire.
All my experience in retail automotive and I got fuddled like a wood duck.
All my experience in retail automotive and I got fuddled like a wood duck.
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fattony
At your stage of flying going for something too complex will just give you performance that you can't use and expence you don't need.
I would recomend one of the fixed gear, fixed pitch prop touring aircraft with about 160-180 hp.
The types I would recommend would be Cessna 172, Piper PA28 or Robin DR400 these three types are well proven, will give you the chance to tour with three passengers and have a usable two & half hours endurance (with reserves). The Cessna and Piper are not exciting to fly and have only average short field performance and basically the DR400-160 will match the performance of the 180hp offerings from America.
I know that there will be others on this forum offering advice to buy more exotic types that will offer better performance, but the three aircraft named above are unlikely to spring any nasty and expensive surprises while giving you enough performance to build your experience.
On a personal note I got into a DR400 group when I had 75 hours in my log book,13,000 hours on I still have a DR400-180 and still enjoy flying it but my PA28 is just a business tool.
I would recomend one of the fixed gear, fixed pitch prop touring aircraft with about 160-180 hp.
The types I would recommend would be Cessna 172, Piper PA28 or Robin DR400 these three types are well proven, will give you the chance to tour with three passengers and have a usable two & half hours endurance (with reserves). The Cessna and Piper are not exciting to fly and have only average short field performance and basically the DR400-160 will match the performance of the 180hp offerings from America.
I know that there will be others on this forum offering advice to buy more exotic types that will offer better performance, but the three aircraft named above are unlikely to spring any nasty and expensive surprises while giving you enough performance to build your experience.
On a personal note I got into a DR400 group when I had 75 hours in my log book,13,000 hours on I still have a DR400-180 and still enjoy flying it but my PA28 is just a business tool.
I would second the advice to start with buying a share in a well established club flying a common simple type like a C 172 or Pa 28. Shares in common types have predictable costs and are easier to sell if you decide to move on.
Not to be a kill joy but the drop out rate a few years post PPL is quite high for a variety of reasons. Unless money is no object dipping your toe by buying into a group with a simple aircraft is a great way to get started without going all in.
Not to be a kill joy but the drop out rate a few years post PPL is quite high for a variety of reasons. Unless money is no object dipping your toe by buying into a group with a simple aircraft is a great way to get started without going all in.
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dan the weegie,
Your post was very long, but I agree with what you say 100%. For those who haven't read it, and are looking to buy for the first time, it's worth taking it all in.
Your post was very long, but I agree with what you say 100%. For those who haven't read it, and are looking to buy for the first time, it's worth taking it all in.
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Id like to butt in if i may as i seek similar advice.
I will soon be in a position to buy an aircraft should I want to, however I have physical limitations which complicates the matter.
Basically, due to a work accident 4 years ago, I have been left with nerve damage in my left leg and have trouble using the toe brakes.
My training was all done in a PA28 which of course has a hand brake. The rudder is not so much of an issue and I can safely operate it. I could try and use the toe brakes, however I cannot safely do it and therefore elect the handbrake.
My nerve damage has basically left me with 'foot drop' where i have very little control of the ankle movement. I can slightly point my foot, but cannot pull it back towards me. I wear an AFO splint which allows me to put force behind the rudder etc and have never had an issue.
So with this in mind, my experience is PPL + IMC + Night Qual and around 100 hours. I do plan to do my CPL ME/IR in due course, purely because I want to learn more and achieve something. I would eventually like to go on to instruct but thats another story..
My ideal aircraft would ideally be able to use my IR (in time) and my night qual. So I guess we are looking at something with C of A. My next requirement would be something relatively fast, be it a complex or simple, but able to get into farm strips (sort of 700meters or so). The last thing would be it must have a hand brake that allows safe and reliable breaking, like in the PA28.
Sorry if i sound a bit naive here, however i really have no idea of which way to turn.
I have been involved in a group which flew a reasonable little cherokee 140 out of fishburn airfield, however had to leave that in april due to finances. Didnt really do much touring as such as was limited to hours per month i could fly. It was a nice little aircraft, just like many of the warriors I flew during training, however I just wish they were faster, or atleast had less fuel burn for the speed they do.
I have seen a very interesting group based at newcastle airport, which uses a provost jet! very interesting indeed and will try and find out a little more when im up there next.
Any help appreciated
Dan
I will soon be in a position to buy an aircraft should I want to, however I have physical limitations which complicates the matter.
Basically, due to a work accident 4 years ago, I have been left with nerve damage in my left leg and have trouble using the toe brakes.
My training was all done in a PA28 which of course has a hand brake. The rudder is not so much of an issue and I can safely operate it. I could try and use the toe brakes, however I cannot safely do it and therefore elect the handbrake.
My nerve damage has basically left me with 'foot drop' where i have very little control of the ankle movement. I can slightly point my foot, but cannot pull it back towards me. I wear an AFO splint which allows me to put force behind the rudder etc and have never had an issue.
So with this in mind, my experience is PPL + IMC + Night Qual and around 100 hours. I do plan to do my CPL ME/IR in due course, purely because I want to learn more and achieve something. I would eventually like to go on to instruct but thats another story..
My ideal aircraft would ideally be able to use my IR (in time) and my night qual. So I guess we are looking at something with C of A. My next requirement would be something relatively fast, be it a complex or simple, but able to get into farm strips (sort of 700meters or so). The last thing would be it must have a hand brake that allows safe and reliable breaking, like in the PA28.
Sorry if i sound a bit naive here, however i really have no idea of which way to turn.
I have been involved in a group which flew a reasonable little cherokee 140 out of fishburn airfield, however had to leave that in april due to finances. Didnt really do much touring as such as was limited to hours per month i could fly. It was a nice little aircraft, just like many of the warriors I flew during training, however I just wish they were faster, or atleast had less fuel burn for the speed they do.
I have seen a very interesting group based at newcastle airport, which uses a provost jet! very interesting indeed and will try and find out a little more when im up there next.
Any help appreciated
Dan