Effect of Brexit on UK certificates etc.
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Effect of Brexit on UK certificates etc.
Recently the head of the CAA stated that they had done no work in preparing for the UK being ejected from EASA and the effect that would have on licences et. He said it was not a credible scenario.
This must have come as a surprise..
https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations
This must have come as a surprise..
https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations
Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular:
Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;
Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons
etc
Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;
Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons
etc
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Only to people who voted "leave" with their eyes shut, their fingers in their ears, whilst singing "la la la" at the tops of their voices. And even they are simply getting what they voted for.
It's not very often, let's be fair, that anyone does actually get what they vote for, but it does happen sometimes, so the clever trick, when voting, is to be prepared that the outcome might just be that you are actually successful.
It's not very often, let's be fair, that anyone does actually get what they vote for, but it does happen sometimes, so the clever trick, when voting, is to be prepared that the outcome might just be that you are actually successful.
It becomes difficult only if you wish to make it so. It's primarily a paper exercise, simply change the name at the top of the relevant document. EASA becomes CAA which so far as GA is concerned it should always have been.
It’s up to the CAA whether a licence is valid or not. They issue the licenses. EASA can choose not to recognize it as an EASA licence, but last I checked the UK is still a member of the ICAO. Not that it matters, you don’t have to be in the EU to be in EASA.
Not that it matters, you don’t have to be in the EU to be in EASA.
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Not that it matters, you don’t have to be in the EU to be in EASA.
Unless UK remains in the EEA by rejoining EFTA after 29 March 2019 and transferring its EU EEA membership to EFTA EEA membership and then becoming a non-voting EASA member, UK will become a "Third Country" and, hence, not an EASA member.
The EASA map shows current member States (use EASA member State filter).
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I don't think most who voted for BREXIT voted for being in EASA without voting rights. They were prepared to take short term chaos for long-term a return of decision making to the UK. An independent CAA.
Those who voted for remain voted for the status quo.
Are we heading for something almost no one wanted?
Those who voted for remain voted for the status quo.
Are we heading for something almost no one wanted?
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22/04
I'm not sure that I remember any reference to EASA on the referendum ballot paper in 2016.
I'd be very interested if you could refer me to survey evidence which confirms a significant volume of the people you allude to who:
In terms of chaos (short term or otherwise), the EU Notice to Stakeholders Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules would seem to indicate that if we do not retain EASA membership in some form or other, then chaos will indeed prevail.
Further, in terms of an independent CAA, in September last year, CAA chief executive Andrew Haines was "uncompromising" in rejecting the idea of planning for a new independent aviation safety system (and thereby seeking mutual recognition with the EU). The CAA had, he said, "consciously decided not to do that work as it would be misleading to suggest that's a viable option". Details here.
Probably we are. If we leave the EU we lose voting membership of EASA. If we leave EFTA/EEA we lose non-voting EASA membership. If we become a "Third Country" we can probably cobble together something like the EASA/Turkish arrangement whereby Turkey is a high fee, non-voting supplicant who's DGCA is permanently in thrall to EASA. Given that it will take years to resurrect a half way efficient UK CAA to act as an independent aviation safety system in the event of leaving EASA, we'll be in Armaggedon territory fairly quickly thereafter, descending from membership of world aerospace leadership with hugely significant collective national experience, skill, innovation, manufacturing capability and technical excellence to a dark world of UK job losses, skill migration, airline closure and manufacturing collapse.
Do we all want this?
I don't think most who voted for BREXIT voted for being in EASA without voting rights
I'd be very interested if you could refer me to survey evidence which confirms a significant volume of the people you allude to who:
were prepared to take short term chaos for long-term a return of decision making to the UK. An independent CAA.
Further, in terms of an independent CAA, in September last year, CAA chief executive Andrew Haines was "uncompromising" in rejecting the idea of planning for a new independent aviation safety system (and thereby seeking mutual recognition with the EU). The CAA had, he said, "consciously decided not to do that work as it would be misleading to suggest that's a viable option". Details here.
Are we heading for something almost no one wanted?
Do we all want this?
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Probably we are. If we leave the EU we lose voting membership of EASA. If we leave EFTA/EEA we lose non-voting EASA membership. If we become a "Third Country" we can probably cobble together something like the EASA/Turkish arrangement whereby Turkey is a high fee, non-voting supplicant who's DGCA is permanently in thrall to EASA. Given that it will take years to resurrect a half way efficient UK CAA to act as an independent aviation safety system in the event of leaving EASA, we'll be in Armaggedon territory fairly quickly thereafter, descending from membership of world aerospace leadership with hugely significant collective national experience, skill, innovation, manufacturing capability and technical excellence to a dark world of UK job losses, skill migration, airline closure and manufacturing collapse.
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Oh and
Not specifically, but in general we were told it would mean "taking back control"
I'm not sure that I remember any reference to EASA on the referendum ballot paper in 2016.
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22/04
May I trouble you for a reference to Mr Rees-Mogg's plan, following departure from EASA, to keep Airbus Broughton wing manufacture rolling, Rolls Royce Derby churning out Trents etc and a myriad supporting, sub-contracting manufacturers in business?
Similarly, I've probably missed his commentary on the EU Notice to Stakeholders. Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules, previously referred to and in particular his plan to counter the devastating effects of:
and thus keep flight crews, engineers, air traffic personnel, cabin crew, training departments etc, etc in business, earning to support families and providing significant contribution to the UK tax base. You see, whenever I look, I can't find any details of putative plans for a Rees-Mogg handling of this upcoming catastrophe.
This looks like the frightening talk which did not persuade remain result in the Referendum. I cannot see Mr Rees Mogg sitting back while we become a "vassal state" though.
Similarly, I've probably missed his commentary on the EU Notice to Stakeholders. Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU Aviation Safety Rules, previously referred to and in particular his plan to counter the devastating effects of:
Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU.
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The EU have to take that stance as that is what will happen if there is not a satisfactory outcome of the negotiations.
I think we rather hope that there will be a probably sector specific trade deal that will permit membership and voting rights for a fee, with an extended transition period to enable it.
Incidentally I didn't support the position we are now in 2015, but we are supposed to be healing our wounds and coming together to make it work.
I think we rather hope that there will be a probably sector specific trade deal that will permit membership and voting rights for a fee, with an extended transition period to enable it.
Incidentally I didn't support the position we are now in 2015, but we are supposed to be healing our wounds and coming together to make it work.
Last edited by 22/04; 15th Apr 2018 at 11:15. Reason: spelling
Brexit not at fault
The largest problem facing GA in the UK has nothing to do with leaving the EU.
We need to look closer to home and see what is happening to the actual 'facilities' that are either being reduced or becoming too expensive, or to complicated to use.
Most of the 'Airfield Issues' that are now upon us are regulations imposed from the airfield owners and nothing to do with the EU.
When places like Biggin Hill are actively making it difficult to operate a club, and also require 'schedule like' permission just to go flying then that is where the worry is.
There is also going to be a decided lack of licenced engineering availability as there are precious few new comers (that will take licences) in the system to replace the current people that actually 'sign off' the GA fleet.
Luckily we still have the LAA in place to assist the enthusiast, however they do not operate airfields so can not help on that front.
We have 'lost' a number of what used to be 'usable' GA facilities and very few if any new ones will be forthcoming. Much of this is due to 'developers' getting control and then 'squeezing' the users, and of course GA is not a 'Vote Getter' for any political party.
We need to look closer to home and see what is happening to the actual 'facilities' that are either being reduced or becoming too expensive, or to complicated to use.
Most of the 'Airfield Issues' that are now upon us are regulations imposed from the airfield owners and nothing to do with the EU.
When places like Biggin Hill are actively making it difficult to operate a club, and also require 'schedule like' permission just to go flying then that is where the worry is.
There is also going to be a decided lack of licenced engineering availability as there are precious few new comers (that will take licences) in the system to replace the current people that actually 'sign off' the GA fleet.
Luckily we still have the LAA in place to assist the enthusiast, however they do not operate airfields so can not help on that front.
We have 'lost' a number of what used to be 'usable' GA facilities and very few if any new ones will be forthcoming. Much of this is due to 'developers' getting control and then 'squeezing' the users, and of course GA is not a 'Vote Getter' for any political party.
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POBJOY
All the problems detailed above will impact UK GA as much as they will the Aerospace/Air Transport sectors following UK becoming a "Third Country" after 29 March 2019. Think EASA Part-FCL licensing, engineering licensing, airworthiness, air traffic control licensing etc, etc.
I do, however, agree with the main body of your post.
The largest problem facing GA in the UK has nothing to do with leaving the EU.
I do, however, agree with the main body of your post.
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22/04
A recent report by the CBI employers' group called Smooth Operations, "suggests the UK could still exert influence over important regulatory decisions through continued membership of the many EU agencies - such as the ones governing aerospace and chemicals - in which other non-EU nations like Turkey currently participate."
The CBI is wrong in its statement in that it maintains that Turkey is a member of the EU Agency, EASA. A look at the EASA website will confirm that this is in error and that Turkey is not an EASA member. The CBI is further in error by suggesting that Turkey could, through a sector specific trade deal "exert influence over important regulatory decisions" and that UK could exert similar, following Brexit.
The reality is contained here detailing a limited relationships known as Working Arrangements. One covers the collection and exchange of information on the safety of aircraft and another deals with the relationships between EASA and the Turkish Directorate General of Civil Aviation.
To quote Dr. Richard North at his website:This latter arrangement is as formal as it gets between the two organisations, which amounts to EASA notifying the Turks of changes to relevant standards and assisting them in understanding the applicable rules, "so as to facilitate their transposition and implementation.
In return for this largesse, the Turks "accept" that EASA will carry out standardisation visits and will rate the facilities inspected as "fully compliant" or in various degrees, "not compliant", whence the Directorate of Civil Aviation undertakes to act on the reports "in order to redress the identified findings". And, for such "services", the Civil Aviation Authority will be invoiced by EASA.
It is this arrangement or something very similar that UK can expect if it becomes a "Third Country".
Again, something we all want?
I think we rather hope that there will be a probably sector specific trade deal that will permit membership and voting rights for a fee
The CBI is wrong in its statement in that it maintains that Turkey is a member of the EU Agency, EASA. A look at the EASA website will confirm that this is in error and that Turkey is not an EASA member. The CBI is further in error by suggesting that Turkey could, through a sector specific trade deal "exert influence over important regulatory decisions" and that UK could exert similar, following Brexit.
The reality is contained here detailing a limited relationships known as Working Arrangements. One covers the collection and exchange of information on the safety of aircraft and another deals with the relationships between EASA and the Turkish Directorate General of Civil Aviation.
To quote Dr. Richard North at his website:This latter arrangement is as formal as it gets between the two organisations, which amounts to EASA notifying the Turks of changes to relevant standards and assisting them in understanding the applicable rules, "so as to facilitate their transposition and implementation.
In return for this largesse, the Turks "accept" that EASA will carry out standardisation visits and will rate the facilities inspected as "fully compliant" or in various degrees, "not compliant", whence the Directorate of Civil Aviation undertakes to act on the reports "in order to redress the identified findings". And, for such "services", the Civil Aviation Authority will be invoiced by EASA.
It is this arrangement or something very similar that UK can expect if it becomes a "Third Country".
Again, something we all want?
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Capt Kremmen
Broughton wing manufacture to France, Germany or Spain.
Derby Trents - bonanza time for GE and Pratt.
Good luck on the "paper exercise for a largely seamless transition". I wish I could share your optimism.
What could derail the situation, I fear, is complete UK government lack of understanding of the EU and its workings.
Broughton wing manufacture to France, Germany or Spain.
Derby Trents - bonanza time for GE and Pratt.
Good luck on the "paper exercise for a largely seamless transition". I wish I could share your optimism.
What could derail the situation, I fear, is complete UK government lack of understanding of the EU and its workings.
I'm guessing it will be a paperwork exercise where we have to send in our certificate, not being able to fly while it's away, as well as making a three figure payment to the good old boys at the CAA. Can't see them missing an opportunity to extort more cash from us.
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Disputes about the application of EASA rules are (or would be, if there ever were any) decided by which court? And refusing to be bound by which court is one of our red lines? QED.