Glider pilots: How often do you train your rope breaks?
Mechta
Whilst I wouldn't disagree with you as to correct winch driver training, my old club was excellent in that respect although there is always some room for improvement. (such as understanding that the launch can trigger a thermal and change the gliders airspeed).
But most of the drivers were fairly young. - the accident problem centred around some of the old f@rts who were instructing since Noah unloaded and were doing so for egotisitical reasons or for free flying to stay current over the winter.(their words).
Before anyone jumps down my throat I stopped instructing when I was in my late 50s as I had started making mistakes and wasn't giving money's worth.
Things go wrong very quickly on a winch launch.
I have known instructors in their late 70s who were excellent but I wasn't prepared to take the risk.
Whilst I wouldn't disagree with you as to correct winch driver training, my old club was excellent in that respect although there is always some room for improvement. (such as understanding that the launch can trigger a thermal and change the gliders airspeed).
But most of the drivers were fairly young. - the accident problem centred around some of the old f@rts who were instructing since Noah unloaded and were doing so for egotisitical reasons or for free flying to stay current over the winter.(their words).
Before anyone jumps down my throat I stopped instructing when I was in my late 50s as I had started making mistakes and wasn't giving money's worth.
Things go wrong very quickly on a winch launch.
I have known instructors in their late 70s who were excellent but I wasn't prepared to take the risk.
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Weak links work harden with use, which results in a well used one having a higher breaking strain than a fresh one. Its not unusual to have a weak link last months, only to then have two or three break replacements in quick succession, until one survives long enough to get enough launches to also be work hardened.
The Air Cadets had a policy at one time of giving pilots a new weak link for a first solo flight, which was just about the worst thing that one could do, as it would fail at a lower tension than the cadet and winch driver was used to on the previous launches.
The Air Cadets had a policy at one time of giving pilots a new weak link for a first solo flight, which was just about the worst thing that one could do, as it would fail at a lower tension than the cadet and winch driver was used to on the previous launches.
As for ripping the hook out, I was being a little flippant
that is more likely to happen to aged wooden a/c possibly suffering from woodworm.The more likely scenario would be a hangup & I was a member when that happened although didn't actually see it. Winch driver franticly whacking at piano wire over a piece of railway sleeper with a 7lb axe, glider doing tight circuits with 3ton winch hanging underneath. I designd & built a giulotine that cured that problem but was never used in anger. No doubt things are safer today than in days of yore & clubs routinely change weak links regularly, but how many new ones does it take till you find a "good" one?
The fact that gigamilions of launches take place successfully only proves that the release mechanism is an excellent design & a weak link is not required because pilots are not trying to pull the wings off.
The fact that gigamilions of launches take place successfully only proves that the release mechanism is an excellent design & a weak link is not required because pilots are not trying to pull the wings off.
With winches typical putting 300hp+ into the cable drum these days, and their engines typically 30% efficient, there is 700hp of heat heading downwind to create, or at least accelerate, a thermal.
Cable breaks from a winch or car tow launch are pretty easy to land from (and we are well trained) but breaks during an aerotow when still low down can be tricky! Not much training in these so you need to think in advance what to do and consider a nearby field landing.
200' Aerotow simulated rope break
I was home in the US in April - two lovely weeks with my family despite by dad being very ill. I took one day for myself and took the glider commercial written test in the morning and the checkride in the afternoon.
As part of the checkride the examiner did a simulated rope break right at 200'. I did an immediate 180-degree turn into the wind (over trees) at a 45-degree bank and continued another 45 degrees to intercept the runway. At this point my speed was slightly slower that I wanted (~57 instead of 60) and it was really hard to push the stick knowing that would give me speed instead of pulling "because I'm so low and need to stay up."
A 45-degree bank the opposite direction saw me lined up with the runway, brakes all the way out and as much slip as I could stand because I was still too high despite the 200' release.
I knew it was coming on one of the flights, so it wasn't a great surprise. I'd imagine it's different when unexpected. Hence, always expect a rope break on the winch and be ready to PUSH HARD NOW, accelerate, and fly the glider safely.
Terry
PS I've never had a real rope break on the winch, though I've seen several and done a number of simulated ones both in the UK and Germany.
As part of the checkride the examiner did a simulated rope break right at 200'. I did an immediate 180-degree turn into the wind (over trees) at a 45-degree bank and continued another 45 degrees to intercept the runway. At this point my speed was slightly slower that I wanted (~57 instead of 60) and it was really hard to push the stick knowing that would give me speed instead of pulling "because I'm so low and need to stay up."
A 45-degree bank the opposite direction saw me lined up with the runway, brakes all the way out and as much slip as I could stand because I was still too high despite the 200' release.
I knew it was coming on one of the flights, so it wasn't a great surprise. I'd imagine it's different when unexpected. Hence, always expect a rope break on the winch and be ready to PUSH HARD NOW, accelerate, and fly the glider safely.
Terry
PS I've never had a real rope break on the winch, though I've seen several and done a number of simulated ones both in the UK and Germany.
Generally a cable break on the winch is easier to handle if properly trained than one on an aero tow. Exception is the very low winch failure.
Problem created by a flat climb gradient without too many options.
The Montpellier club - made famous after having a collision with an airbus - has options of trees or grape vines verses turn and spin....not a joke especially during a downwind aero tow.
Problem created by a flat climb gradient without too many options.
The Montpellier club - made famous after having a collision with an airbus - has options of trees or grape vines verses turn and spin....not a joke especially during a downwind aero tow.
Many years ago I was a member of a gliding club at a historic military airfield,the CFI decided I needed an annual check...fair enough 
I was very current and had originally been well trained in cable break procedures LOL
First launch we get a real medium break...so 360 and land ...which of course I pay for...
Second launch we get a real medium cable break...so 360 and land...which of course I pay for...
Third launch we get yet another real medium cable break...but I just stuffed the nose down - pulled full airbrake (K13) and landed straight ahead,the instructor was a little confused as we had enough height for a 360...but understood when I told him that I did not have to pay for a straight ahead
I was very current and had originally been well trained in cable break procedures LOL
First launch we get a real medium break...so 360 and land ...which of course I pay for...
Second launch we get a real medium cable break...so 360 and land...which of course I pay for...
Third launch we get yet another real medium cable break...but I just stuffed the nose down - pulled full airbrake (K13) and landed straight ahead,the instructor was a little confused as we had enough height for a 360...but understood when I told him that I did not have to pay for a straight ahead
Cable breaks from a winch or car tow launch are pretty easy to land from (and we are well trained) but breaks during an aerotow when still low down can be tricky! Not much training in these so you need to think in advance what to do and consider a nearby field landing.
-- IFMU
Our club in 30 years ops has never had an aerotow rope break or weak link failure. Look after the tackle and it will look after you.
Last edited by Fantome; 11th Aug 2012 at 02:15.
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Herr AlexUM,
When I started it was car- and winch-launches only. We were regularly subjected to cable-break training. In addition to that there were frequent actual cable-breaks seeing as we used wire because our landing strips were invariably gravel or sand, i.e. very abrasive to more 'high-tech' braided lines. The wire was not as strong, of course, and did not take kindly to rough launches. As a result the general standard of flying in this kind of emergency was quite acceptable. I gather that cable-break training, also recurrent cable-break training, is still very much the norm when engaged in winch-launching. (anybody still attach themselves to a car these days?)
Nowadays with launching being predominantly aerotow (and self-launching of course) I see no more cable-break training, which is my answer. The question you posed makes me think whether we should be training aerotow cable-breaks? Or is the risk unacceptably great when weighed up against the statistical chance of an actual break occurring on tow? Certainly I would not be very happy practicing a cable-break at 50 feet AGL with the end of the runway just disappearing behind the tug and glider, and I'm not sure whether a simulated cable-break within the safety-circuit - once at a more reasonable height than immediately after lift-off - would have much benefit, seeing as how that scenario becomes just another circuit, albeit possibly a somewhat shortened version. What do the brethren think?
On an aside, I have a scar on one lower leg from a bit of wire that penetrated to a depth of around two centimetres from a winch-launch that went awry. One of those early-fifties beasties where one sat right atop the contraption, blissfully exposed to the action, only nominally 'protected' by a little canvas awning. When the cable broke the loose end would flail around off the drum, pieces sometimes flying off in all directions. The cacophony of sounds was a little unsettling, as well as occasionally being pierced by hot little pieces of wire. Nasty things, winches.
Was für 'ne Mühle fliegst Du? Hals- und Beinbruch!
When I started it was car- and winch-launches only. We were regularly subjected to cable-break training. In addition to that there were frequent actual cable-breaks seeing as we used wire because our landing strips were invariably gravel or sand, i.e. very abrasive to more 'high-tech' braided lines. The wire was not as strong, of course, and did not take kindly to rough launches. As a result the general standard of flying in this kind of emergency was quite acceptable. I gather that cable-break training, also recurrent cable-break training, is still very much the norm when engaged in winch-launching. (anybody still attach themselves to a car these days?)
Nowadays with launching being predominantly aerotow (and self-launching of course) I see no more cable-break training, which is my answer. The question you posed makes me think whether we should be training aerotow cable-breaks? Or is the risk unacceptably great when weighed up against the statistical chance of an actual break occurring on tow? Certainly I would not be very happy practicing a cable-break at 50 feet AGL with the end of the runway just disappearing behind the tug and glider, and I'm not sure whether a simulated cable-break within the safety-circuit - once at a more reasonable height than immediately after lift-off - would have much benefit, seeing as how that scenario becomes just another circuit, albeit possibly a somewhat shortened version. What do the brethren think?
On an aside, I have a scar on one lower leg from a bit of wire that penetrated to a depth of around two centimetres from a winch-launch that went awry. One of those early-fifties beasties where one sat right atop the contraption, blissfully exposed to the action, only nominally 'protected' by a little canvas awning. When the cable broke the loose end would flail around off the drum, pieces sometimes flying off in all directions. The cacophony of sounds was a little unsettling, as well as occasionally being pierced by hot little pieces of wire. Nasty things, winches.
Was für 'ne Mühle fliegst Du? Hals- und Beinbruch!
I've looked after my tackle all my life but it still sometimes lets me down
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" an immediate 180-degree turn into the wind (over trees) at a 45-degree bank and continued another 45 degrees to intercept the runway. At this point my speed was slightly slower that I wanted (~57 instead of 60) and it was really hard to push the stick knowing that would give me speed instead of pulling "because I'm so low and need to stay up."
As part of the checkride the examiner did a simulated rope break right at 200'. I did
I don't normally venture onto this forum, but the above doesn't quite make sense.
Surely you were being launched into wind ?....and the subsequent landing was downwind. You say you performed two 45 degree banks, which, from a height of 200 ft and descending after recovering airspeed from the "break" is pushing your luck a shade. And why, once you had the break and performed the 180 did you not simply land on the runway as I assume the tug had not deviated from the runway heading on departure given the height ( 200ft) of the simulated break.
As for cable breaks, well it's basic psychology and training to prepare for every launch with the potential in mind and keep the left hand very adjacent to the little yellow knob / handle.
The weak links have worked perfectly well over the years but there have been the odd times when the release hook has failed and thus the guillotine gets used on the winch.
As part of the checkride the examiner did a simulated rope break right at 200'. I did
I don't normally venture onto this forum, but the above doesn't quite make sense.
Surely you were being launched into wind ?....and the subsequent landing was downwind. You say you performed two 45 degree banks, which, from a height of 200 ft and descending after recovering airspeed from the "break" is pushing your luck a shade. And why, once you had the break and performed the 180 did you not simply land on the runway as I assume the tug had not deviated from the runway heading on departure given the height ( 200ft) of the simulated break.
As for cable breaks, well it's basic psychology and training to prepare for every launch with the potential in mind and keep the left hand very adjacent to the little yellow knob / handle.
The weak links have worked perfectly well over the years but there have been the odd times when the release hook has failed and thus the guillotine gets used on the winch.
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Knc, I think he meant "into the crosswind". Furthermore, I think he was discussing a winch launch, where 200' is kinda tricky.
I just posted my exam paperwork for the GPL to the authorities, so I don't have a lot of experience in gliding, but IMO the bit between about 150' and 300' is the most tricky part on a winch launch. You don't really have enough altitude to do a proper, abbreviated circuit, you are already nose high so you need to shove the nose down quite hard before you have the proper glide attitude and visibility, and a lot of runway has already disappeared behind you, leaving you with very little room to land ahead. Landing downwind might be the only option indeed.
On the two aerotows I ever did, we only reached 200' when we were miles from the airfield. No way we could have made it back, but there were plenty emergency fields to choose from. I have not done the calculations but it seemed to me the ascent angle of a DA-20 with a fully loaded ASK-21 in tow is less than the descent angle of the fully loaded ASK-21 on its own. So unless the tug/glider combination somehow circles back to the field during the tow, there is no way the glider will make it back to the field in case of a rope break. Unless the glider manages to find lift somehow, of course.
Back to the original topic - my last simulated rope break was just last Monday. At the club where I learned gliding it's standard part of the checkout procedure. Normally done at 300', which is adequate, but not ample, for an abbreviated circuit.
I just posted my exam paperwork for the GPL to the authorities, so I don't have a lot of experience in gliding, but IMO the bit between about 150' and 300' is the most tricky part on a winch launch. You don't really have enough altitude to do a proper, abbreviated circuit, you are already nose high so you need to shove the nose down quite hard before you have the proper glide attitude and visibility, and a lot of runway has already disappeared behind you, leaving you with very little room to land ahead. Landing downwind might be the only option indeed.
On the two aerotows I ever did, we only reached 200' when we were miles from the airfield. No way we could have made it back, but there were plenty emergency fields to choose from. I have not done the calculations but it seemed to me the ascent angle of a DA-20 with a fully loaded ASK-21 in tow is less than the descent angle of the fully loaded ASK-21 on its own. So unless the tug/glider combination somehow circles back to the field during the tow, there is no way the glider will make it back to the field in case of a rope break. Unless the glider manages to find lift somehow, of course.
Back to the original topic - my last simulated rope break was just last Monday. At the club where I learned gliding it's standard part of the checkout procedure. Normally done at 300', which is adequate, but not ample, for an abbreviated circuit.
an immediate 180-degree turn into the wind (over trees) at a 45-degree bank and continued another 45 degrees to intercept the runway.
Surely you were being launched into wind ?....
Having had an aerotow in which the tow rope just fell off the glider at 300ft, with nothing broken, I'm a great believer in not trusting anything.
The trouble with practicing practicing aerotow cable breaks is like practicing failure modes with winch drivers and low winh lauch cable breaks. If you practice it for real, sooner or later something's going to get broken. In other words, a good justification for a realistic simulator.
an immediate 180-degree turn into the wind (over trees) at a 45-degree bank and continued another 45 degrees to intercept the runway.
There are some hilltop sites which due to the slope on them are take off downhill and land uphill runways, particularly when aerotowing.
IFMU
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" The one on Wasserkuppe springs to mind"
True
However, and I am not being contentious here, some things still do not add up.
If it was a cable break, at 200 ft on a winch launch, then why not recover the airspeed ( always helps ! ) to approach speed, pull the brakes albeit only to a minimal extension, and land straight ahead ?....and if you have a cross wind ( and Bruggen for example, was notorious for such ) then you simply fly "into wind", then kick off the drift as per normal for landing.
Surely with a 200 ft cable break, there has to be more than enough landing area straight ahead even on short / narrow strips.
It would be nice to learn the type of glider and location therefore.
True
However, and I am not being contentious here, some things still do not add up.
If it was a cable break, at 200 ft on a winch launch, then why not recover the airspeed ( always helps ! ) to approach speed, pull the brakes albeit only to a minimal extension, and land straight ahead ?....and if you have a cross wind ( and Bruggen for example, was notorious for such ) then you simply fly "into wind", then kick off the drift as per normal for landing.
Surely with a 200 ft cable break, there has to be more than enough landing area straight ahead even on short / narrow strips.
It would be nice to learn the type of glider and location therefore.
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 14th Aug 2012 at 04:07.
KNC, LTCTerry does mention in the title that it was an aerotow, not a winch launch; so at 200 feet he may not have had much, if any runway in front of him. He also mentions in his later post that there was a downhill gradient to the runway, so he might easily have found himself going along in ground effect or rolling down the runway in a glider with little inclination to stop had he attempted to go straight ahead. Glider wheel brakes are notoriously bad, so he was wise not to try and rely on it.
It was an aerotow, as mentioned in the title, but not clearly (OK, not at all) in the body of the text.
"Into the wind" - yes, actually into the crosswind component to reduce how far you travel from the runway.
180 degrees - only takes you parallel to the runway you just took off from - still need to get over the runway and straighten for a downwind landing.
It made perfect sense to me when I wrote it...
Terry
"Into the wind" - yes, actually into the crosswind component to reduce how far you travel from the runway.
180 degrees - only takes you parallel to the runway you just took off from - still need to get over the runway and straighten for a downwind landing.
It made perfect sense to me when I wrote it...
Terry
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Terry, I have no idea why anybody thought you referred to other than an aerotow launch, nor why they could not understand that a single turn (180 degrees?) gets you parallel to, not in line with, the runway for a downwind landing. Unless there is a cross wind which drifts you back in line , of course you need more than 180 degrees first, then an opposite turn to straighten up in line. What you wrote made perfect sense, as you said.
Re Bungey Launch, “The Midland Gliding Club is one of the few places left in the world where you can experience a Bungey Launch”. See:
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ChrisN
Re Bungey Launch, “The Midland Gliding Club is one of the few places left in the world where you can experience a Bungey Launch”. See:
Midland Gliding Club Ltd at the Long Mynd
ChrisN
