Stalling - Help & Advice

[mad_jock]

Yep its fully stalled with you fannying around with the rudder pedals trying to keep the wings level.

And yes its the perfect setup for a spin

Nope for each configuration there is a back of the drag curve. Its related to the angle of attack once you go over usually the best glide angle of attack your into the dirty side.

[Armchairflyer]

(Genghis): Rudder throughout, but ONLY to keep the aeroplane in balance (in other words no discernable sideforce and the ball in the middle), NOT to pick up a dropped wing.

Why that? My understanding was that picking up the wing with rudder allows sooner application of aileron to roll level, but as always I might be mistaken.

[piperboy84]

MJ

Yep its fully stalled

So what determines if you will enter a "traditional" stall or "falling leaf" is it down to individual aircraft characteristics or is it control inputs regardless of what model of plane

[mad_jock]

Falling leaf is when you fanny about holding it in the stalled condition dicking about with the rudder to lift wings and other such ****e instead of recovering it.

[piperboy84]

Understood, thanks

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by piperboy84

3. Questions,

1.
Is a "falling leaf" really a stalled condition, and if not what signifies advancing from a falling leaf stall to a full stall condition? and will a falling leaf always progress to a fully developed stall or will you just basically flutter all the way down if inputs are not changed.

The airworthiness standards define the stall as full back stick or an uncommanded pitching and/or rolling motion.

The flight test community would define the stall usually as the high AoA point where the pilot has ceased to have full control in all three axes.

Either way, the falling leaf (which I agree with Jock, is a bloody silly thing to do, not least because it's not a manoeuvre tested during certification, and instructors should not be doing untested manoeuvres with their students) is stupid, but does meet the definition of a stalled condition.

2. Can you go directly from falling leaf to incipient spin?

Yes, typically through failure to maintain zero sideslip during the pitch-up part of this stupid and irresponsible maneouvre.

3. "Back of the drag curve" do the flaps have to be deployed to reach the Back of the drag curve point?

Thanks

Nope, the drag curve just changes shape - you can get on the back of the drag curve in any configuration so long as the aeroplane has enough pitch authority to let you - which almost invariably they will do.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Armchairflyer

Why that? My understanding was that picking up the wing with rudder allows sooner application of aileron to roll level, but as always I might be mistaken.

Applying rudder for any purpose other than ensuring (near) zero sideslip, increases drag, and increases the risk of spin. If anything it delays your ability to safely use aileron, not brings it quicker.

Unstalling the wing with elevator gives you an unstalled condition, and thus allows you to use aileron.

But there is seldom a good reason to hurry to lift the wing. It's the stalled condition that can give you problems; unstalled, a bank angle is just a bank angle. The 20-30 degrees which is the worst you should see in most aeroplanes after a stall has a trivial effect on stall speed, and you can still climb with it - so sort the bank angle out once the wing is unstalled, and ideally the aeroplane is level or climbing - but not earlier because you don't need to, and applying aileron at too high an AoA can also lead to a spin entry.

G

[Pace]

There has been some excellent advice from Pilot Dar CGB Genghis and others.
Most fear is fear of the unknown.
There are two ways to confront fear! slow immersion or extreme immersion so much so that it no longer scares you.
If I stall on my own and make a mistake I may spin. I may get into a situation I cannot handle and then i will die?
This is part of the reason I push for spin familiarity spiral dives and anything the aircraft throws at you RATHER THAN RECOVERY AT INCIPIENT!
My suggestion if this is a real problem is to do a few hours with a good aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic machine. Not to do aerobatics but so you can experience in safety what the aircraft can and will do if abused and how to get out of it to such an extent that fear of the unknown has gone.

pace

[piperboy84]

My suggestion if this is a real problem is to do a few hours with a good aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic machine. Not to do aerobatics but so you can experience in safety what the aircraft can and will do if abused and how to get out of it to such an extent that fear of the unknown has gone.

I had the fear issue and did exactly as you suggest here, went to an aerobatic school that specialised in spin recovery and teaching emergency manoeuvres training, it was great learning and a lot of fun. Upon completing the course i thought as soon as i get home I am going to practice stalls etc on my own in my own plane, Funny thing is i still have not tried it, i always seem to give myself excuses not to do it, i think the fear is still there.

[Pittsextra]

The original post talks about a fear of stalling and actually you can sympathise with the view given the current PPL (i.e no spin training) and some of the established views (some expressed here).

With the correct training there is nothing to fear from either a stalled condition or the spin. In fact aerobatics will introduce spins which require stopping to the a degree of accuracy to the 1/4 turn at the first stages - so all of this is under control.

The problem is that during the PPL such a big deal is made of the stall/spin that students are left uneducated - in fact most instructors have very little spin knowledge.

Sadly this extends to the military where this fear is re-enforced as they themselves have drilled holes in the ground with a variety of basic trainers.

The only solution (IMO) is do some training with a good aerobatics instructor. Your profile suggest you live in Swindon - so White Waltham is a perfect venue for you to kick off.

[Pittsextra]

Either way, the falling leaf (which I agree with Jock, is a bloody silly thing to do, not least because it's not a manoeuvre tested during certification, and instructors should not be doing untested manoeuvres with their students) is stupid,

??? What?? You could fly tomorrow with any number of good aerobatic instructors that could demonstrate this condition at will. Why is it "bloody silly'?

[Pace]

Piperboy

But did it make you feel more confident and relaxed having done that aerobatic experience than if you had not?
When I got my PPL I quite happily took friends off on trips into France with a much more experienced pilot with me.
On one occasion my friends turned up we were ready to go and a message came through from my friend who told me he had crashed the car and was unable to come.
I was all for cancelling and got really nervous until my friend assured me I didnt need him to hold my hand.
I was still nervous but bit the bullet loaded my other friends and we had a superb flight there and back which did my confidence the world of good.
In any situation where you know you have someone alongside who can sort things it is a fear in itself to loose that safeguard and go it alone.
That is an equal fear as stall recovery and the only way to deal with it is to go it alone.
FEEL THE FEAR AND DO IT ANYWAY!

Fear is about the unknown get taught recovery to incipient which is the modern trend and there is a lot of unknown there.
Go have fun with an aerobatic machine

Pace

[stiknruda]

A CONFESSION

FB1971

I learnt to fly in the RAF in the late 70's and then had a 10 year break before I obtained my civvy licence in 92 in a small African country. I aced groundschool & exams, amazed my instructor(ess) with my Nav and did really well in the circuit (hardly surprising really given my not revealed past!). She'd send me off solo for GH - just practice steep turns and stalls as you need to build the hours to qualify for the licence!

I was Łucking terrified of steep turns and stalls ON MY OWN- I don't know what caused this terror! I'd take off from her crop-dusting strip and head off to the nearest cloud and hide behind it, so she couldn't see me! After gentle wingovers and lots of Avgas being burnt, I'd head back and land. Oh it went well Lindsay, I'd say as I filled in the log. I passed my GFT as the examiner sat next to me and I knew he'd not let me kill him!

A few months later I flew with Dennis Spence and he suggested a couple of hours in his Pitts (The Smirnoff Team in Jo'burg). I flew with Rehan VT and VT (a former Silver Falcon and instructor (SAAF's Red Arrows)) explained stalling, spinning so clearly that the knowledge began to dispel the fear.

So my point is - if you are frightened, tell your instructor - if he/she can't help - change instructors!!

Stik

Blog

Dennis features in a recent blog!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Pittsextra

??? What?? You could fly tomorrow with any number of good aerobatic instructors that could demonstrate this condition at will. Why is it "bloody silly'?

Presumably those aerobatic instructors are using aeroplanes stressed and tested to carry out aerobatics.

NOT a PA28, C150, Thruster T600, Pegasus Quantum.... .... all of which to my certain knowledge were not tested or stressed for such a manoeuver, but all of which have been used by halfwitted instructors to demonstrate it.

G

[Pittsextra]

Thats fair but I'm not sure anyone had talked type before - some one simply suggested get your instructor to demo the falling leaf which then got a hail of "thats silly, dangerous.. etc"

Of course you should respect the limitations of the type your find yourself flying..

Although you did say "not least' so type limitations aside you are fine with the concept?

[Pace]

Ghengis

When spin instruction was stopped it was because more aircraft were lost training in spin instruction than for real!
Does that mean students should not be taught spin recovery? NO!
It means the right machine with the right instructor should be used.
Pilots should be familiar with all situations they can get into to be properly trained as pilots.
The author of this thread highlights the poor level of training offered in the PPL at present as well as the other thread regarding fear of forced landings.
Recovery to incipient is just not good enough!
Not just for the reason that they dont know the difference or recovery from a spiral dive or spin but are even scared of stalls for fear of what they may get into if the stall is abused.
We now have got to the stage that Cirrus pilots are told to wreck the aircraft by pulling the chute as they are so poorly trained or current in PFLs and handling that the chute is the best option.

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

Am I fine with the concept of a falling leaf manoeuver in training?

In an aerobatic aeroplane, for a post-PPL advanced student learning about the corners of the envelope, absolutely fine. We did it on my ETPS course - from memory in a Tucano, and probably the Hawk.

For a PPL student, in a non-aerobatic aeroplane, who needs to build up behaviour patterns that will lead to immediate stall recovery with low height loss. Absolutely not.

Pace>> I am not against taking an aeroplane to a full stall, and believe that students should be taught to recognise the stall, and recovery from it promptly. I am against holding an aeroplane in the stall once it clearly has done - that is either aerobatics or test flying, and is not sensible or useful flight instruction.


G

[Pittsextra]

Genghis I'm not being funny but if anyone stalls a PA28 and doesn't realise it then frankly its a case of natural selection in action.

Getting a low time PPL to the point of stall safely isn't difficult, the recognition of which and corrective behaviour is down to the individual.

The OP suggested he was fearful of this state, which IMO is no surprise given the attitude around this subject. Its borderline "sea monsters live beyond 'ere"
and quite silly.

Whilst I absolutely agree with the attitude around type, its perhaps more indicative of the military than the nature of the type of flying that it was only until you are at the ETPS that you explore this element of the flight envelope?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I did ETPS as a civilian back-seater, so I don't know first hand what the chaps in the front seat had seen of post-stall conditions prior. That said, given that in my syndicate the two pilots were a Herc driver and an F-18 driver, the odds are that it varied somewhat.

I mostly agree with you - any pilot should recognise the stall, and feel comfortable going there and coming back. I do not, for example, like the typical FAA approach of slow flight only recovering at the warner.

Okay, I'm not PPL student, nor have been for several decades, but I practice stalls most months, increasingly from the right hand seat, and regard them as just something you stay current at, whilst avoiding them if you didn't actually mean to. The "here live dragons" attitude in much (civilian / GA) flight training is indeed silly.

But I remain firmly of the opinion that the first priority in PPL training should and must be recognition and prompt recovery. Taking an aeroplane into the post stall regime should not go outside the cleared envelope, and should generally be regarded as an unnatural act - at that level of training. That doesn't preclude spin familiarisation, but again the emphasis should be, once in a spin, on prompt recovery.

Holding an aeroplane in any post-stall condition belongs in specialist advanced training, using aeroplanes properly certified for the purpose.

G

[funfly]

Doing stalls and unusual attitudes under a hood, now that really does concentrate the mind