Cirrus Chute Pull, 4 Survive landing in trees, 22/07/12
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Cirrus Chute Pull, 4 Survive landing in trees, 22/07/12
Update: FAA Inspectors To Visit Pickens County Crash Site | WSPA
Some quite good pictures and video footage, fortunately all survived, believed pilot had engine failure and was unable to safely make Pickens County Airport in North Carolina.
Some quite good pictures and video footage, fortunately all survived, believed pilot had engine failure and was unable to safely make Pickens County Airport in North Carolina.
For the record 61 people have survived 31 activations of the Cirrus airframe parachute system (CAPS).
No one has died when CAPS when was activated within design parameters of airspeed below 133 KIAS and altitude above 1,000' AGL.
No CAPS pull has resulted in a post-crash fire.
No one has died when CAPS when was activated within design parameters of airspeed below 133 KIAS and altitude above 1,000' AGL.
No CAPS pull has resulted in a post-crash fire.
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While missing tons of green prime horse padocks all around.
But no instead of doing a forced landing before the engine failed they had to try and make some tarmac and ended up killing the airframe.
ACME Mapper 2.0 County Airport (South Carolina)
But no instead of doing a forced landing before the engine failed they had to try and make some tarmac and ended up killing the airframe.
ACME Mapper 2.0 County Airport (South Carolina)
But no instead of doing a forced landing before the engine failed they had to try and make some tarmac and ended up killing the airframe.
Waldo Lardburger realises that having forgotten to put enough fuel in his "airplane", the engine is about to stop. Ripping out a Big Mac-flavoured belch, he puts down his half-gallon diet coke and reviews the situation. In front of him the glass-cockpit stares back - the GPS a riot of green. With a yawn, Waldo thinks "Fuggit, too hard man...!" and reaches for his Coke and the Ballistic Deploy lever. He settles back in his seat mumbling "Brakes, undercarriage, mixture,...yeah, yeah, yeah..whatever dude..."
The preceding does not necessarily represent the possible findings of an inquiry into the incident...
There is no question that in dozens of incidents to date CAP's has turned a smoking hole with dead bodies accident into one where everyone walked away and in many instances where the aircraft was repaired and continues to fly on.
From a pure self interest point of view, anything that cuts down on the screaming "light airplane disaster at XXX" headlines is a good thing.
But at a more human level I am dismayed that some posters seem to be comfortable that death
is an appropriate penalty for recreational/non professional pilots that suffer a skill deficit under high stress situations.
I guess they know their superior skills and steely nerves will always allow them to deal with any emergency and so they will never lower themselves to consider use a device that will pretty much guarantee a survivable return to earth in the event of a significant emergency
From a pure self interest point of view, anything that cuts down on the screaming "light airplane disaster at XXX" headlines is a good thing.
But at a more human level I am dismayed that some posters seem to be comfortable that death
is an appropriate penalty for recreational/non professional pilots that suffer a skill deficit under high stress situations.
I guess they know their superior skills and steely nerves will always allow them to deal with any emergency and so they will never lower themselves to consider use a device that will pretty much guarantee a survivable return to earth in the event of a significant emergency
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 24th Jul 2012 at 02:27.
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That is a more than fair point BPF.
My comment which I will admit is based on only seeing the surrounding Sat view is that I hope the CAP is not being used as the first option instead of the last.
I will admit that once commited to a forced landing at some point the CAP will not be available so a call has to be made before they reach that point.
Was the plane pushing for tarmac with numerous fields going under the wheels? Only the report will tell.
My comment which I will admit is based on only seeing the surrounding Sat view is that I hope the CAP is not being used as the first option instead of the last.
I will admit that once commited to a forced landing at some point the CAP will not be available so a call has to be made before they reach that point.
Was the plane pushing for tarmac with numerous fields going under the wheels? Only the report will tell.
Regardless of the events that led to the pilot pulling the chute, he did it in time to save his own life, and that of his three passengers.
Even if the aircraft is written off, who cares? The aircraft failed you - you owe it nothing. The priority is saving lives. Done. Great job.
Even if the aircraft is written off, who cares? The aircraft failed you - you owe it nothing. The priority is saving lives. Done. Great job.
Whilst in general, I'm with Jock about over-reliance on technology and the possibly tenuous airmanship of a few Cirrus pilots - that terrain, being hilly, wooded, and congested with all sorts of other obstacles, is hardly condusive to a good forced landing. I think in the circumstances, pulling the handle probably was the right action.
Depending of-course on the height and location of the aeroplane at the time of the engine failure.
G
Depending of-course on the height and location of the aeroplane at the time of the engine failure.
G
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Even if the aircraft is written off, who cares? The aircraft failed you - you owe it nothing
Last edited by mad_jock; 24th Jul 2012 at 09:42.
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Very true but I suspect that the type will eventually be priced out of the market by insurance costs.
In the US however I've heard that actually on the whole the insurance companies would rather keep the pilot as a customer than have them die... So it seems to cut both ways from an insurance point of view...considering how common the Cirrus is, especially in the US, a slightly doubt it's ever going to be uninsurable though.
With regard to this particular crash; I'm all for speculation and looking at the aerial shot I don't think the area looks great for a forced landing, certainly not one in which the plane would be less damaged than by pulling the chute. Yes there are lots of fields but they aren't very big (for reference the runway is 1500m I believe) and there are lots of trees and houses in the way. Although obviously if one pulls the chute there is the risk of hitting a house/tree once you are falling but you are probably less likely to be injured descending under the chute and hitting something then hitting something going forwards at flying speed.
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Very true but I suspect that the type will eventually be priced out of the market by insurance costs. And all of us will be paying increased premiums.
Anyway, money should be the least important consideration when making decisions in an emergency. Safety first. I, too, would have pulled that handle. I wish I had one of those on every aircraft I fly.
Last edited by what next; 24th Jul 2012 at 10:04.
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Very true but I suspect that the type will eventually be priced out of the market by insurance costs. And all of us will be paying increased premiums.
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Whilst these debates are interesting and give food for thought, I certainly would not give two thingy's what anyone thought of my actions, or what their views of a more appropriate action were, if I pulled and got it on the ground and all walked away.
I personally find it difficult to fault a decision that results in all walking away. To do so when offering alternative actions with such limited knowledge is....................!
BB
I personally find it difficult to fault a decision that results in all walking away. To do so when offering alternative actions with such limited knowledge is....................!
BB
I am not sure how long the cirrus aircraft have been flying around with the CAPS system but 31 activations in an aircraft not as numerous as the C172/PA28 types seems to be rather high and suggests that it is used as an easy way out option. Are there many cases of the SR22 actually pulling off any landings away from an airfield when in trouble?
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All fair points. Especially the US take on the insurance liability.
Must admit I used to fly and teach in similar topography so to me it looks pretty good for someone in a PA38/C172 at least. Never had to do a forced landing in anger mind but there have been a few in the area and all of the survived.
It is quite interesting though the views.
So what is the average profile of someone that pulls the chute?
And what is the profile of someone that doesn't and has a fatal?
Must admit I used to fly and teach in similar topography so to me it looks pretty good for someone in a PA38/C172 at least. Never had to do a forced landing in anger mind but there have been a few in the area and all of the survived.
It is quite interesting though the views.
So what is the average profile of someone that pulls the chute?
And what is the profile of someone that doesn't and has a fatal?
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There is no question that in dozens of incidents to date CAP's has turned a smoking hole with dead bodies accident into one where everyone walked away and in many instances where the aircraft was repaired and continues to fly on.
From a pure self interest point of view, anything that cuts down on the screaming "light airplane disaster at XXX" headlines is a good thing.
But at a more human level I am dismayed that some posters seem to be comfortable that death
is an appropriate penalty for recreational/non professional pilots that suffer a skill deficit under high stress situations.
I guess they know their superior skills and steely nerves will always allow them to deal with any emergency and so they will never lower themselves to consider use a device that will pretty much guarantee a survivable return to earth in the event of a significant emergency
From a pure self interest point of view, anything that cuts down on the screaming "light airplane disaster at XXX" headlines is a good thing.
But at a more human level I am dismayed that some posters seem to be comfortable that death
is an appropriate penalty for recreational/non professional pilots that suffer a skill deficit under high stress situations.
I guess they know their superior skills and steely nerves will always allow them to deal with any emergency and so they will never lower themselves to consider use a device that will pretty much guarantee a survivable return to earth in the event of a significant emergency
I just fail to comprehend the general luddite UK attitude, especially in a demographic - pilots - who should normally embrace technology. Beats me....
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We do embrace technology.
Just don't sell our souls and jump in with both feet when the latest thing comes out.
We also don't forget hard learned lessons from the past and in some ways we do also appreciate the basic skills as an art. If you can survive without the use of technology when said technology fails you still have options.
Currently it seems to me that at the moment a great bit of technology is being hampered by a few that are not using it in the most approprate way.
To add some of it may be the way alot of us were trained. We got it hammered into us that you never give up ever. And pulling that handle means you have.
Just don't sell our souls and jump in with both feet when the latest thing comes out.
We also don't forget hard learned lessons from the past and in some ways we do also appreciate the basic skills as an art. If you can survive without the use of technology when said technology fails you still have options.
Currently it seems to me that at the moment a great bit of technology is being hampered by a few that are not using it in the most approprate way.
To add some of it may be the way alot of us were trained. We got it hammered into us that you never give up ever. And pulling that handle means you have.
Last edited by mad_jock; 24th Jul 2012 at 11:02.
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Originally Posted by MJ
So what is the average profile of someone that pulls the chute?
And what is the profile of someone that doesn't and has a fatal?
And what is the profile of someone that doesn't and has a fatal?
Any such stats available?
When things go tits up the number one objective is to maximise the chances of survivability, most other considerations are irrelevant unless the chances of pulling them off are very favourable and do not compromise the chances of survivability.
BB
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To be fair the chute does give you a final option and I will fully admit that in some of the crashes, the fact the pilot hasn't given up and used the chute could of stopped the crash being fatal.
To me the whole thing is a very interesting discussion on pilot thought processes. I am not anti the chute by any means.
Its very similar in my view to the teaching of spinning. Alot out there will say its paramount and unacceptable not to teach it and it would save lives.
When in actuality the accidents stats pretty robustly prove that more people are killed teaching it than it saves. Maybe pulling the chute will be statistically the best option. At least it will insure a constant replacement of aircraft so we don;t have 30 year old ****e heaps to put up with
My own personal view on spinning is that its a skill which is acceptable to leave out of primary training but after a broader experence base is gained its advisable to revisit beyond the previous avoidance training. But it should be done by an instructor who is competent to teach it. I did used to spin with students but now will freely admit looking back I wasn't competent to teach spinning.
To me the whole thing is a very interesting discussion on pilot thought processes. I am not anti the chute by any means.
Its very similar in my view to the teaching of spinning. Alot out there will say its paramount and unacceptable not to teach it and it would save lives.
When in actuality the accidents stats pretty robustly prove that more people are killed teaching it than it saves. Maybe pulling the chute will be statistically the best option. At least it will insure a constant replacement of aircraft so we don;t have 30 year old ****e heaps to put up with
My own personal view on spinning is that its a skill which is acceptable to leave out of primary training but after a broader experence base is gained its advisable to revisit beyond the previous avoidance training. But it should be done by an instructor who is competent to teach it. I did used to spin with students but now will freely admit looking back I wasn't competent to teach spinning.
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Yet another of these threads.
What worries me is when clearly intelligent people run off the same arguments again and again without I presume any knowledge of the facts.
We dont know, or at least I certainly dont, the circumstances surrounding this pull so how it can be assumed the pilot gave up or resorted to the chute before considering other options escapes me?
Moreover, as another poster commented, are we seriously chastising a pilot for pulling the chute knowing so little. Some of us may well have thought there were other options and some of us may well have thought we were sufficiently current to land in a field but we werent flying the aircraft, were we? The chap who was may have been less current and less comfortable. I have no idea how regular he flew, but if you are going to ban people from being in command if they have only flown a few hours in the last 90 days you had better let EASA and the FAA know first. Like it or not GA probably wouldnt exist if we required every pilot to be as current as some on here would have.
Fact is a forced landing is an emergency and even for those current it can go horribly wrong. As we have discussed before you dont know what you might impact (even in that innocent looking field); the outcome is not certain. On the other hand the record under chute is astonishingly good.
I know, I know it presents another problem. Should the chute be the first resort? The trouble is when you attempt that forced landing ignoring the chute and it goes horribly wrong do you spend the rest of your life thinking what if?
What worries me is when clearly intelligent people run off the same arguments again and again without I presume any knowledge of the facts.
We dont know, or at least I certainly dont, the circumstances surrounding this pull so how it can be assumed the pilot gave up or resorted to the chute before considering other options escapes me?
Moreover, as another poster commented, are we seriously chastising a pilot for pulling the chute knowing so little. Some of us may well have thought there were other options and some of us may well have thought we were sufficiently current to land in a field but we werent flying the aircraft, were we? The chap who was may have been less current and less comfortable. I have no idea how regular he flew, but if you are going to ban people from being in command if they have only flown a few hours in the last 90 days you had better let EASA and the FAA know first. Like it or not GA probably wouldnt exist if we required every pilot to be as current as some on here would have.
Fact is a forced landing is an emergency and even for those current it can go horribly wrong. As we have discussed before you dont know what you might impact (even in that innocent looking field); the outcome is not certain. On the other hand the record under chute is astonishingly good.
I know, I know it presents another problem. Should the chute be the first resort? The trouble is when you attempt that forced landing ignoring the chute and it goes horribly wrong do you spend the rest of your life thinking what if?
