You have an electrical fire in the cockpit...
Cut & Paste Intellectual
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What Ghengis said 1-5 and don't wear shorts.
The RAF don't wear growbags for the fun of it. I not suggesting NBC clothing but a nod in the direction of the correct clothing can be helpful in the event of a fire.
I've seen people flying in flip flops.
The RAF don't wear growbags for the fun of it. I not suggesting NBC clothing but a nod in the direction of the correct clothing can be helpful in the event of a fire.
I've seen people flying in flip flops.
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In my PPL days, I always wore flying gloves. Much more handy to put cockpit wiring fires out with, rather than bare skin. Only used to fly 172s etc., but always wore them in case........
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You could argue this like you can argue wearing a drysuit for over water.
Flying alone it's up to you what you wear but in the end it comes down to how "civilised" you want to make your flying with other people. Most people will not want to participate if the barrier is set at this level.
IMHO, a fire (that would go out of control and disable the pilot even if power is turned off promptly) on a well maintained certified aircraft is such a massively unlikely scenario that if you get it, your luck has truly run out.
On some homebuilts, it is less unlikely, and I recall reading of some homebuilts using aluminium fuel pipes to the engine, which is stupid because as the engine vibrates on its rubber mounts, the fuel pipe will break. A few AAIB reports I recall reading more or less said that the thing was on fire and the pilot was overcome by flames while still in the air. But certified types will have a high standard of fuel plumbing, which is not exactly rocket science...
Flying alone it's up to you what you wear but in the end it comes down to how "civilised" you want to make your flying with other people. Most people will not want to participate if the barrier is set at this level.
IMHO, a fire (that would go out of control and disable the pilot even if power is turned off promptly) on a well maintained certified aircraft is such a massively unlikely scenario that if you get it, your luck has truly run out.
On some homebuilts, it is less unlikely, and I recall reading of some homebuilts using aluminium fuel pipes to the engine, which is stupid because as the engine vibrates on its rubber mounts, the fuel pipe will break. A few AAIB reports I recall reading more or less said that the thing was on fire and the pilot was overcome by flames while still in the air. But certified types will have a high standard of fuel plumbing, which is not exactly rocket science...
Thread Starter
I started this thread prompted by a question on a checkout questionnaire at a flight school I was going to rent from.
The answer that they gave in the end was, indeed, master off first; but they said that they would consider squawking 7700 then immediately turning off the master. Faster than a radio call, and they said that as soon as you hit 7700 it will transmit, it won't wait to be interrogated by primary radar...is this correct?
The answer that they gave in the end was, indeed, master off first; but they said that they would consider squawking 7700 then immediately turning off the master. Faster than a radio call, and they said that as soon as you hit 7700 it will transmit, it won't wait to be interrogated by primary radar...is this correct?
Last edited by Katamarino; 30th Sep 2012 at 22:26.
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Katmarino - interesting question, i dont know the answer.
My gut feeling is with mode c the transponder will only respond when interrogated, 7700 or not.
With mode s extender squitter was implemented. This means the transponder will transmit certain information include the emergency call without being interogated.
So i think with mode c they would be wrong.
My gut feeling is with mode c the transponder will only respond when interrogated, 7700 or not.
With mode s extender squitter was implemented. This means the transponder will transmit certain information include the emergency call without being interogated.
So i think with mode c they would be wrong.
For mode c:
How would the radar identify the aircraft if it was not being interrogated? And would the dish be able to pick up a weak transmission if it was not pointing at the aircraft? And if it were pointing at the aircraft, wouldn't it be likely to be interrogating it?
How would the radar identify the aircraft if it was not being interrogated? And would the dish be able to pick up a weak transmission if it was not pointing at the aircraft? And if it were pointing at the aircraft, wouldn't it be likely to be interrogating it?
Last edited by abgd; 1st Oct 2012 at 02:20.
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The answer that they gave in the end was, indeed, master off first; but they said that they would consider squawking 7700 then immediately turning off the master. Faster than a radio call, and they said that as soon as you hit 7700 it will transmit, it won't wait to be interrogated by primary radar...is this correct?
It's interesting that they'd tell you to squawk 7700 but not do a radio call. I can almost guarantee you that I'd be able to get out a mayday call before I'd be able to set my transponder to 7700. Plus, anyone who hears the mayday call will know where you are but if you squawk 7700 and immediately turn off the master, you will disappear from radar and no one knows where you are now!.. unless a controller happens to be looking right at your location when the alarm goes off. You've just wasted a few precious seconds for nothing.
I'm not sure if ATC has the capability to 'replay' their radar screen to see what just happened, I think that would be the only way to figure out your position. Someone who is from ATC would be the one to answer that.
I still advocate that you follow your checklist immediately and turn off the electrical power. If that fire is self-sustaining before you get the master turned off... you will be having a bad day. Don't waste time!
Older transponders used to transmit their reply even as a new code was being selected. Newer transponders delay their transmissions until a set period after digit was selected, giving sufficient time to complete the code selection.
Anyway, I'm in the 'Master OFF' camp. There's bugger all that ATS can do for me while I'm in the air & potentially on fire. On the ground, maybe, *if* I land at an airfield that has RFFS. But in the air? No. They'll get a hint that something is wrong when the transponder stops replying and I don't respond to their calls. Meanwhile I'll be doing what's necessary to deal with the problem.
If things deteriorate then the ELT can do much of the needed MAYDAY notification with the flick of a button. If things go OK then I can inform ATC after restoring power and cancel whatever alert phase they probably invoked when the plane went 'dark'.
Anyway, I'm in the 'Master OFF' camp. There's bugger all that ATS can do for me while I'm in the air & potentially on fire. On the ground, maybe, *if* I land at an airfield that has RFFS. But in the air? No. They'll get a hint that something is wrong when the transponder stops replying and I don't respond to their calls. Meanwhile I'll be doing what's necessary to deal with the problem.
If things deteriorate then the ELT can do much of the needed MAYDAY notification with the flick of a button. If things go OK then I can inform ATC after restoring power and cancel whatever alert phase they probably invoked when the plane went 'dark'.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 1st Oct 2012 at 04:24.
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A few details
Primary radar will never pick up a transponder.
The time it takes for a transponder code to be seen on a radar screen depends on the delay that is put into the radar system to prevent nusence warnings, the type of transponder you have in the aircraft and the sweep rate of the secondary radar head.
The time it takes for a transponder code to be seen on a radar screen depends on the delay that is put into the radar system to prevent nusence warnings, the type of transponder you have in the aircraft and the sweep rate of the secondary radar head.
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as soon as you hit 7700 it will transmit, it won't wait to be interrogated by primary radar...is this correct?
Also, extended squitter returns data only when interrogated.
If you set 7700, nobody might see you for x seconds, where x is the period of the radar(s). In fact they might not see you for 2x if they have spurious squawk suppression which they probably do because with the "knob" transponders one can set 7700 momentarily.
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Umless you are about to land unnanounced into someones airport 7700 will be of no use to you if you are on fire.
Getting it down quick will be more important than switching on the transponder for 10 seconds and switching it off again. Chances are ATC would consider it to be a spurious selection anyway.
Far more important would be to use that brief time to tell someone you are on fire or have smoke and are forcelanding and cutting all electrical power.
As for fire protection clothing other than wearing nomex, cotton is best but frankly none will protect you for very long plastics will obviously burn into the skin and are the worst.
Pace
Getting it down quick will be more important than switching on the transponder for 10 seconds and switching it off again. Chances are ATC would consider it to be a spurious selection anyway.
Far more important would be to use that brief time to tell someone you are on fire or have smoke and are forcelanding and cutting all electrical power.
As for fire protection clothing other than wearing nomex, cotton is best but frankly none will protect you for very long plastics will obviously burn into the skin and are the worst.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st Oct 2012 at 07:22.
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You may not know that the fire is electrical. That happened to a friend of mine. He thought he had an electrical fire when the cockpit filled with smoke. He admirably got the aircraft on the ground very quickly indeed without time to get a mayday in. It turned out to be a fire in the engine bay. No burns and a repairable aircraft was the result of the prompt action.
