Use of VRPs by ATC
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Use of VRPs by ATC
Just seeing that Waltham thread reminded me of something...
Something which has come up a number of times on VFR trips over the years is that ATC sometimes use VRPs which are unpublished.
AIUI, they should use only VRPs which are in the AIP. Those VRPs will then find their way into VFR charts (national, Jepp, etc) and into GPS databases.
But the local ones won't be known other than to locals.
I am suprised as to the extent to which this goes on.
Perhaps ATC are aware of this, and use the local ones only for pilots they know will know about them? A non-local or foreign pilot is going to get a bit of a "cockpit workload increase" otherwise...
Something which has come up a number of times on VFR trips over the years is that ATC sometimes use VRPs which are unpublished.
AIUI, they should use only VRPs which are in the AIP. Those VRPs will then find their way into VFR charts (national, Jepp, etc) and into GPS databases.
But the local ones won't be known other than to locals.
I am suprised as to the extent to which this goes on.
Perhaps ATC are aware of this, and use the local ones only for pilots they know will know about them? A non-local or foreign pilot is going to get a bit of a "cockpit workload increase" otherwise...
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A non-local or foreign pilot is going to get a bit of a "cockpit workload increase" otherwise...
I've had this on a number of occasions and it was never a problem. On the other hand, I've also had (and used) non-published VRPs in airspace where I'm very familiar and it really helps with situational awareness and getting the route you want.
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Never mind unpublished VRP's
I have never ever found that VRP to the south of Leeds which is the bottom of a valley next to a cinema and a bend in the river. Closest I have managed to get with radar vectors is 3 miles and I still couldn't see the sodding thing.
I have never ever found that VRP to the south of Leeds which is the bottom of a valley next to a cinema and a bend in the river. Closest I have managed to get with radar vectors is 3 miles and I still couldn't see the sodding thing.
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Well, yeah, on VFR flights I've also been sent to NDBs, even though my flight plan identifies the aircraft as VO/S.
And then there's the famous story about somebody naming a VRP "big hill", in a mountainous area. That one even confused ATC.
And then there's the famous story about somebody naming a VRP "big hill", in a mountainous area. That one even confused ATC.
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Worst one at Edinburgh was Philipston. Big red bing (slag heap) would have been more appropriate.
There has been a refreshing initiative by ATC at Edinburgh. Last year they invited local airfield club members to give their input to try to cut down on airspace infringements. Our club members offered to fly them over the entry exit lanes to establish what worked best for the pilots and ATC.
We should see an update very soon.
D.O.
There has been a refreshing initiative by ATC at Edinburgh. Last year they invited local airfield club members to give their input to try to cut down on airspace infringements. Our club members offered to fly them over the entry exit lanes to establish what worked best for the pilots and ATC.
We should see an update very soon.
D.O.
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What a sensible solution.
Always did wonder why some of these Airspace boundarys were so arbutary. It would have made much more sense for someone to decide how much they needed then went up in a puddle jumper and had a look at the features to see where the sensible boundary would lie between features.
Its like the inveruie lane in ABZ cracking feature to follow. With Inch as the starting point.
Always did wonder why some of these Airspace boundarys were so arbutary. It would have made much more sense for someone to decide how much they needed then went up in a puddle jumper and had a look at the features to see where the sensible boundary would lie between features.
Its like the inveruie lane in ABZ cracking feature to follow. With Inch as the starting point.
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2 separate issues.
1) Is a VRP in the AIP?
2) Is a VRP visible?
If it is in the AIP then it should appear in the modern GPS databases. I did a VFR/Europe presentation the other week and for that I looked at some current Garmin handhelds (695 etc). All of them showed the official VRPs, as published on the Jepp printed charts for example.
As regards 2) that is an old chestnut - look at the notorious "Nokia Factory" near Farnborough
Actually, for all I know (not looking it up right now) that might well be an official VRP because IIRC my KMD550 shows it 
But if you have a GPS which shows VRPs, 90% of the job is done for you.
In the international (Europe) VFR context, ATC will normally send you to a VRP, so you have to be on top of those which you can reasonably expect.
France tends to use 1- and 2-letter VRP names, such that ones to the N of the airport are called N, NA, NB, ones to the east are called E, EA, EB etc.
Some other countries also use single letter names but not based on the compass bearings e.g. LIPQ has VRPs called G or GRADO and V or VICKY to the south of the airport
1) Is a VRP in the AIP?
2) Is a VRP visible?
If it is in the AIP then it should appear in the modern GPS databases. I did a VFR/Europe presentation the other week and for that I looked at some current Garmin handhelds (695 etc). All of them showed the official VRPs, as published on the Jepp printed charts for example.
As regards 2) that is an old chestnut - look at the notorious "Nokia Factory" near Farnborough
Actually, for all I know (not looking it up right now) that might well be an official VRP because IIRC my KMD550 shows it But if you have a GPS which shows VRPs, 90% of the job is done for you.
In the international (Europe) VFR context, ATC will normally send you to a VRP, so you have to be on top of those which you can reasonably expect.
France tends to use 1- and 2-letter VRP names, such that ones to the N of the airport are called N, NA, NB, ones to the east are called E, EA, EB etc.
Some other countries also use single letter names but not based on the compass bearings e.g. LIPQ has VRPs called G or GRADO and V or VICKY to the south of the airport
Last edited by peterh337; 22nd Jun 2012 at 10:45.
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I had it in my CPL test and as soon as I was asked to report it said to the examinor right thats me failed I haven't found that bastard yet. I am going to ask for a IFR recovery to the ILS then visual circuit for the single engine stuff.
He just burst out laughing and said well if you know you won't find it that sounds like a sensible command desicion if you hold an IR like you do. And it wasn't mentioned again. 15 quid approach fee V 6 pounds a min in the twin no brainer.
He just burst out laughing and said well if you know you won't find it that sounds like a sensible command desicion if you hold an IR like you do. And it wasn't mentioned again. 15 quid approach fee V 6 pounds a min in the twin no brainer.
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One of the best things about an IR is that you are never given a VRP again (unless going Z or Y etc).
On my FAA CPL I was asked to find a VRP north of Elstree somewhere... couldn't find it, the instructor couldn't find it, eventually I got the GPS out (with the CAA 1:500k map running on it as a moving map, showing the VRP) and we flew straight to the spot, only to find the VRP had vanished. It was some sort of roundabout which had been dismantled
On my FAA CPL I was asked to find a VRP north of Elstree somewhere... couldn't find it, the instructor couldn't find it, eventually I got the GPS out (with the CAA 1:500k map running on it as a moving map, showing the VRP) and we flew straight to the spot, only to find the VRP had vanished. It was some sort of roundabout which had been dismantled
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One of that type of it doesn;t excist anymore was my first turning point on my test.
Thankfully someone before hand had given me the sheet which tells you which unused airfields on the chart have had a change of use in the vale of york. The one I had been aiming for had turned into a open prison or pig farm or some such and you couldn't see what it used to be. Knowing that it was fairly easy to give the old three identifiers and saying it used to be there.
Thankfully someone before hand had given me the sheet which tells you which unused airfields on the chart have had a change of use in the vale of york. The one I had been aiming for had turned into a open prison or pig farm or some such and you couldn't see what it used to be. Knowing that it was fairly easy to give the old three identifiers and saying it used to be there.
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Just say "unfamiliar" and they'll give you vectors, or a published VRP, or whatever
There are loads of VRPs which are unclear from the name, a roundabout, town centre, cement works, dock etc. etc.
Last edited by VMC-on-top; 22nd Jun 2012 at 11:59.
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Will they give you a description of it to start with?
If I were inbound to a new airfield I'd look them up beforehand, but in this case I was just overflying somewhere I'd been before and never before been asked to report a VRP.
Last edited by Gertrude the Wombat; 22nd Jun 2012 at 12:45.
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Or how about 'Nokia Factory' or 'Jaguar Factory'. If you're asked to use these and then require ATC to give you a description of what said generic large building looks like then it demonstrates a flaw in the system.
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If you are asked to go somewhere you're not familiar with, tell the controller and/or ask for vectors to get there.
Do so sooner rather than later, as "guessing" might land you in some deep water later on.
Do so sooner rather than later, as "guessing" might land you in some deep water later on.
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You won't get vectors from a non radar airport
It would be interesting how many VFR pilots have managed to get vectors in the terminal environment. My recollection from my VFR flights abroad is "never", though I did readily get them when high altitude enroute (also VFR).
Also, in the international context, ATC's expectation (of VFR traffic) is that you can locate a VRP. If you cannot locate a VRP, they don't have to do anything. Remember their ICAO English Proficiency only needs to include the standard phrases
It would be interesting how many VFR pilots have managed to get vectors in the terminal environment. My recollection from my VFR flights abroad is "never", though I did readily get them when high altitude enroute (also VFR).
Also, in the international context, ATC's expectation (of VFR traffic) is that you can locate a VRP. If you cannot locate a VRP, they don't have to do anything. Remember their ICAO English Proficiency only needs to include the standard phrases
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Certainly in Europe VRPs are very common and I have to say some of them pretty hard to sort out.
My tactic has always been to use the GPS (
), made much easier in that they are often used for routing purposes - which as I recall is not generally supposed to be their purpose at least in the UK!
My tactic has always been to use the GPS (
), made much easier in that they are often used for routing purposes - which as I recall is not generally supposed to be their purpose at least in the UK!
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My recollection from my VFR flights abroad is "never", though I did readily get them when high altitude enroute (also VFR).
But at the same time the better your view is of the ground below. The view will look like your chart so you can see where the towns are.