Do you listen to ATC if they tell you the weather ahead is bad?

[mad_jock]

These exam call signs can be a right bastard fis

[maxred]

I was at Glasgow when this guy arrived, escorted by the police helicopter. It was my son who said to me that the event had happened, I had my head under the cowling looked up and said don't be daft. Read the paper today, and low and behold he was accurate. The cloud base was 900, with a lateral viz of 7k, at the time, with heavy shower activity. We were gong to go flying but due to weather did not. The end result here was positive, but could easily have not had such an ending. There have been a number of times when I have been flying south, having departed very marginal VFR, and have listened to Scottish Info giving weather updates, and still pilots soldier on northward into lowering cloud base. Never quite understood why???

[Fuji Abound]

Well given the facts i would like to add to my earlier comments and the discussion.

Rules are rules and perhaps sometimes rules can be bent but amoung all the myths in aviation the dangers of flying into imc without the training or the kit is not one of them. Now a current and capable instrument pilot in a suitable aircraft of any type (whether or not it is approved for instrument flight) will get on just fine and i know of a few pilots who will do just that. What they do is illegal but at least they are no more likely to kill themselves or anyone else.

What we dont know is if this pilot intended any such thing.

It is wrong to assume that all pilots operate to the same minima. When we start flying a base of 2000 feet seems low. With time experience and training vfr at 500 might work (as one of the earlier posters mentioned). I have done many a local jaunt with a 600 foot cloudbase quite happily. Ok i am not rcommending doing so unless you are certain you have the skills but the supposition that scud running is lethal is one of the myths.

For all of these reasons i feel rightly a controller should be congratulated for passing on weather information and on occasions using some of the other "tricks" available to him to test the pilots resolve to do something illegal or dangerous but that is as far as it should go.

I have heard on many occasions contollers asking pilots whether they can accept an ifr clearance. The pilots is now on the spot. While as we know in the uk at the moment he can continue on an ifr clearance in vmc without an ir not many know that! Moreover most pilots would get to grips with the reason for the controller asking being because he expects the flight to enter imc. So the pilot is now vocalising that he is prepared to do something illegal. Not many are prepared to go that far.

Of course as would seem to be the case here the pilot may simply state he will continue vfr and if he thinks he can he is entitled to do so as he will be outside cas. Equally in cas the contoller can refuse the clearance if he cant accept ifr albeit as i indicated ealier he can still "cheat" and claim he has maintained vmc although that may be very unlikely!

[gasax]

FBW posed a question do you listen to ATC? The sub-text was if this character had listened to FBW the 'incident' would not have occured. And that is entirely correct.

But and it is a HUGE but, if FBW says Edinburgh weather is pants does that mean flying north to Perth is impossible? No it does not. It means the weather at Edinburgh is pants.

This character got it wrong and the sensible thing would probably have stopped or returned to Carlisle / Kirkbride. But a weather report from somewhere else is information - it is not a ban on flight.

At the end of the day it is about judgement. This one was wrong and I would guess he just carried on into lowering cloud - which is pretty dumb. But babybear if FIS tells you somewhere is 800ft within 10 to 30 miles of your route do you immediately turn around? Somehow I doubt it - which is why I have not joined in the hang him now responses which pprune is so full of.

[peterh337]

I may be missing something, but if this chap was able to be escorted to safety by a helicopter, they must have been in VMC.

So it is a basic navigation issue.

Why could he not navigate?

I know people will take the micky out of me for mentioning the 3-letter word again, but why didn't he carry a GPS?

In the 20th century, never mind the 21st century, the concept of getting lost in VMC should be totally alien.

[maxred]

Not to get hung up on this incident, the flight I believe was to Perth. Perth has a VOR procedure, therfore. If this pilot was IFR proficient, he could have pressed on legally. However, it is flying on into higher ground. MSA for the sector would be 3k, higher as he went North. The aeroplane, what I saw of it did not look IFR capable, I may however be totally wrong. However, if controllers are indicating that between your current position, and, your destination, the weather is not good, it is a fair assumption that the weather at destination is not going to be good either. He was VFR.

The area is cluttered with controlled airspace, therefore if the pilot presses on into controlled airspace, verbally maintaing he is VFR, with commercials flying down glide slopes to CAT 11, then the controllers are going to ask at some stage do you wish IFR, or SVFR. Decision time for the pilot. He did I believe the correct thing, he landed with help. That is a result, a very good result, however, it does not get away from the fact, in this incident, should he have been there in the first place.

[madlandrover]

Perth has a VOR procedure, therfore.

No, it doesn't - it may have had one (a decent one!!) in the past when established under full ATC, but it does not have an instrument approach that can be used for planning purposes any more.

[Pace]

You take all information available to you and make a judgement based on flying within your and the aircraft limits.
I can remember a glorious flight in a mooney to San Sebastian. Flying in perfect VFR conditions low level over the beaches I could not believe my ears when Biarritz was reporting sky obscured RVR 300 metres.
I asked for the San Sebastian weather a few miles away which was still good with fog rolling in.
Checked the fuel for a return back and was soon flying over fog banks to San Sebastian.
Literally cleared fog banks with the runway below. Full flap and landed.
Another occasion In a private jet I was told to take up a radar heading into Bournmouth.
Right on track was a nasty CB. The controller insisted there was nothing on her radar my eyes told me different.
Declined the heading!
Yes you have to take information from a number of sources ATC included and make a judgement.
That Judgement should depend on flying within your own and the aircrafts limits!

Pace

[maxred]

I understand, but the VOR is still operable, and the procedure is still there. Obviously unless training, it is an emergency procedure, but it is still there.

[robin]

I think we can all safely assume that the conditions on that permit are not identical to those on permit for the the flexwing microlight I was flying yesterday morning. The odds are that the wording on the permit for the MCR01 we're talking about are different again.

Once a CofA machine goes to LAA Permit, the flight conditions revert to those of the Permit,

The Jodel 1050s moved from CofA and although some were able to fly at night, the LAA Permit is limited to day VFR only. It makes no odds whether the aircraft is equipped for night flight or has a glass cockpit - IMC or night flight is not permitted, though it is clear some Permit owners do stretch the limits somewhat.

Whether these limits are sensible or not, the insurers will certainly take note

[BabyBear]

Gasax,

To get this;

Originally Posted by gasax

But babybear if FIS tells you somewhere is 800ft within 10 to 30 miles of your route do you immediately turn around?

from this;

Originally Posted by FBW

I obtained weather ahead from airfields that he was liable to have to fly over....to say the least these reports were poor....the best OVC at 600ft and the worst OVC at 300ft....

causes me to further question your motive?

BB

[thing]

I'd like a penny for every time I have passed traffic information to 'VFR' and 'SVFR' flights (yes...SVFR too...) only to be told 'Roger, I'm IMC at the moment...'

Ah, but you might be just in a bit of muck for a couple of seconds.

Happened to me on the way to the Sherburn meet in March, I was crossing Doncaster zone on a VFR Traffic service no higher than 2,500'. It was good vis but there was a lot of cloud around at varying levels. The good lady controller passed me some crossing traffic just as I popped into some scud (you couldn't really fly around it, you would just fly into some more and it went down quite a bit), I called 'IMC this instant, watching on exit' which was literally one or two seconds later.

She called ' Can I remind you that you are on a VFR transit.' I said it would be no problem to go IFR and asked for an IFR clearance. She said 'No, that's OK stay VFR.'

I was left a little bemused. I might add that Doncaster controllers are always excellent.

[Crash one]

I notice the BBC said he lost his compass. How does that work then? Did mag north slip down the side for a bit?
In answer to Fisbang, Yes thank you, much appreciated.

[dont overfil]

Thing,
There is no halfway house. You are IFR or VFR. It should be pre planned.
You put the controller in a compromising position.

You need to understand the controllers position. The person who is the subject of this thread didn't understand either.

D.O.

[thing]

There is no halfway house. You are IFR or VFR. It should be pre planned.
You put the controller in a compromising position.

You need to understand the controllers position. The person who is the subject of this thread didn't understand either.

I understand that, however on the day the weather (cloudbase) lowered rapidly en route against forecast. I had no problem changing to IFR after she reminded me that I was on a VFR crossing after my (minor) IMC excursion, it was the fact that she wanted me to stay at the same altitude and remain VFR that threw me a bit.

I bet there isn't a pilot on this forum that hasn't gone IMC for however short a period while VFR. Although no, having said that I forget that some of you have flown like saints the whole of your lives...

[Genghis the Engineer]

So, controllers - I'm on a long leg, I'm IMC qualified, I may well be flying quadrantal rule (or can easily adjust my height to do so), and receiving a basic service. VFR/IFR hasn't been discussed, no flight plan has been filed -I'm just flying in open FIR. And there's a big bank of cloud in front of me - so I elect to fly through it, as there's no reason not to. What do you want me to tell you? Serious question, as I really cannot recall ever being taught this and am pretty certain that there's nothing in CAP 413 about it either.

I know what I have done, but I'd like to know what controllers think I should do.



Back to the specific incident, there's a bit of a difference of attitude between light GA and microlight GA which is, I think, mostly down to stall speeds and weights.

The typical microlight has a Vs~30kn and a flying weight under 1000lb, which allows it to land in 100-200m without significant piloting skill. It also usually has an undercarriage specifically designed for grass.

The typical light aeroplane has a Vs~50kn, could well have a flying weight nearer 2000lb and thus may well need 400-600m to land on grass with normal piloting skill.

So, the well adjusted microlight pilot should have a clear mentality of "if in doubt slow down and go low level, and if that doesn't work out, pick something large and flat, and land on it". As a microlight pilot, I've done this several times - fellow microlighters hear the story and congratulate me on good judgment, whilst my light aeroplane flying friends will often look utterly shocked that I did such a thing as simply land in a field. Needless to say, on none of these occasions did the aircraft suffer any damage, and on most I managed to fly it out again.

In a light aeroplane with suitable instrumentation of-course I can climb into it, go IMC, and take an IAP somewhere with a nice big runway. If it had a CofA, that's even legal (taking the view that safe trumps legal every time). In a microlight - with usually no Tx, and no navaids but a compass and a GPS, I'd be really reluctant to do that, and in a flexwing I'd not even contemplate it.


Which brings us back to the chap flying the MCR01 - why the heck did this chap not, regardless of anything else, just land in a field? The aeroplane is quite capable of landing on 200m of flattish grass, which even in central Scotland is pretty easy to find (even if it may normally involve paying green fees )

G

[thing]

So, controllers - I'm on a long leg, I'm IMC qualified, I may well be flying quadrantal rule (or can easily adjust my height to do so), and receiving a basic service. VFR/IFR hasn't been discussed, no flight plan has been filed -I'm just flying in open FIR. And there's a big bank of cloud in front of me - so I elect to fly through it, as there's no reason not to. What do you want me to tell you? Serious question, as I really cannot recall ever being taught this.

I've always wondered that too. I've also called in class G on a basic service to say I'm going VMC on top or just IMC if there's a bit of clag in front and the a/c is settled nicely in the cruise. All I've ever had back is 'G-**** roger.'

[madlandrover]

Obviously unless training, it is an emergency procedure, but it is still there.

Strictly speaking, even when training it doesn't exist as a procedure if flown in IMC . It is however a pretty good way to fly a series of sensible tracks down to MSA utterly legally. The danger of publicising it/people being used to flying it down to lowish levels during training is that someone might rely on it/come to think that it's a genuine licensed procedure. It is, of course, a perfect example of somewhere that one day should have a legal IAP to a non-ATC field!

[DavidWoodward]

I always listen to the weather and if it's poor, I turn back. I was heading back from Shobdon a couple of weeks ago and the very helpful lady on London Information asked if I wanted the weather information for back at Manchester. I said yes obviously, purely because her voice was lovely ;-)

[Fuji Abound]

I dont think open fir makes any difference. If you are entering imc you should tell the controller you are declaring ifr (and in imc). The point being that while he has no authority to prevent you doing so both he and any other aicraft on frequency are now aware that you can no longer see and avoid. If a radar service is available chances are even if their isnt capacity for vfr traffic you will get a service.

A common mistake having declared ifr is to believe that because you are in open fir you can deviate from the declared height. You shouldnt because the controller is entitled to expect you to maintain height unless you inform him to the contrary.