Strange practice of a flying instructor?
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GEP, let's not get our wires crossed; I agree totally with your key points, namely, the degree of risk. It is absolutely safer to land and swap over (because we're all much better (hopefully!) and have received more training in landing an aeroplane than changing seats in flight).
Without trying to antagonise the issue, and I'll firstly say that comparing this to landing wasn't the best example, I read your thoughts as following... Landing an aeroplane is nothing other than a phase of a planned flight. Why is not changing seats simply the same thing? Because you don't have to do it, right? But you have to land... (Unless you're the gents in the photo above, or one of those crazy meatbomber types!)
Ok then, at massive risk of thread drift, do you mind explaining why a large majority of pilots I come across take their aeroplane into the sky, and totally and needlessly roll it, loop it, spin it, stall it, put it on a knife edge then roll it some more?
There's nothing in the POH that prohibits it, so it's totally legal... But is it safe?
Of course, but only with proper briefing and training... Just like swapping seats in a PA28. I'd even go so far as to say, when taken right back to basics, the former is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the latter, given absolutely no training.
The crux of it is, no training is legally required to do either...
Without trying to antagonise the issue, and I'll firstly say that comparing this to landing wasn't the best example, I read your thoughts as following... Landing an aeroplane is nothing other than a phase of a planned flight. Why is not changing seats simply the same thing? Because you don't have to do it, right? But you have to land... (Unless you're the gents in the photo above, or one of those crazy meatbomber types!)
Ok then, at massive risk of thread drift, do you mind explaining why a large majority of pilots I come across take their aeroplane into the sky, and totally and needlessly roll it, loop it, spin it, stall it, put it on a knife edge then roll it some more?
There's nothing in the POH that prohibits it, so it's totally legal... But is it safe?
Of course, but only with proper briefing and training... Just like swapping seats in a PA28. I'd even go so far as to say, when taken right back to basics, the former is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the latter, given absolutely no training.
The crux of it is, no training is legally required to do either...
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Halfbaked boy.
Ok, then lets assume that the pilot is flying a type that is rated for aerobatics, only an idiot will go and try and teach themselves aerobatics, whilst in the UK in theory anyone can try, most decide that they want to learn properly to avoid endangering themselves and/or the aircraft.
You will remember from your basic training hassell checks?
If you had been instructed to do any aerobatics you would have had it drilled into you that even involved checking that you had nothing in your pockets that could come loose during aerobatics, anything loose has the potential to jam controls or cause injury.
We have all been flying when an unexpected pocket of air caused the aircraft to drop, why is that not going to happen when someone is unstrapped and trying to climb from one seat to another in a PA28, which of course is a lot tighter on space than a 747.
With respect to aerobatics a lot of people enjoy aerobatics and go out to learn how to improve their raw flying skills by learning how to do aerobatics properly. The same as some people enjoy touring or flying a taildragger.
In my opinion self taught aerobatics is likely to result in death....
Back onto the thread its all about recognising the risk and managing it to a sensible level. In this case its about a commercially rated instructor placing students at risk, a risk that they may have been totally ignorant to and one they assumed was normal practice, why bother??
Ok, then lets assume that the pilot is flying a type that is rated for aerobatics, only an idiot will go and try and teach themselves aerobatics, whilst in the UK in theory anyone can try, most decide that they want to learn properly to avoid endangering themselves and/or the aircraft.
You will remember from your basic training hassell checks?
H- Height Sufficient to recover by
3000ft (900M) AGL
A-Airframe Flaps and landing gear UP
S-Security Hatches closed and locked,
Harnesses secure, no loose articles
E-Engine Ts and Ps, fuel, carb heat, throttle and pitch as required
L-Location Clear of controlled airspace cloud and built-up areas
L-Lookout Clearing turns
So looking at the check list we look at the "S-Security" check, NO LOOSE ARTICLES. Why is that? Why bother?3000ft (900M) AGL
A-Airframe Flaps and landing gear UP
S-Security Hatches closed and locked,
Harnesses secure, no loose articles
E-Engine Ts and Ps, fuel, carb heat, throttle and pitch as required
L-Location Clear of controlled airspace cloud and built-up areas
L-Lookout Clearing turns
If you had been instructed to do any aerobatics you would have had it drilled into you that even involved checking that you had nothing in your pockets that could come loose during aerobatics, anything loose has the potential to jam controls or cause injury.
We have all been flying when an unexpected pocket of air caused the aircraft to drop, why is that not going to happen when someone is unstrapped and trying to climb from one seat to another in a PA28, which of course is a lot tighter on space than a 747.
With respect to aerobatics a lot of people enjoy aerobatics and go out to learn how to improve their raw flying skills by learning how to do aerobatics properly. The same as some people enjoy touring or flying a taildragger.
In my opinion self taught aerobatics is likely to result in death....
Back onto the thread its all about recognising the risk and managing it to a sensible level. In this case its about a commercially rated instructor placing students at risk, a risk that they may have been totally ignorant to and one they assumed was normal practice, why bother??
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GEP, let's not get our wires crossed; I agree totally with your key points, namely, the degree of risk. It is absolutely safer to land and swap over (because we're all much better (hopefully!) and have received more training in landing an aeroplane than changing seats in flight).
It is better to land pull off the runway and changeover there.
I have changed seats in mid flight in bigger faster aircraft where the changeover is simple but it does take a few minutes to get into gear and change from a passeneger metality to a pilot one.
Seeing an array of guages with frequencies you have not loaded, course indicators you have not set can make things very confusing for maybe even up to 10 15 minutes and even can upset your flow and performance for the remainder of the flight.
I can understand that in advanced training in expensive machinery one student pilot monitors from the back and changes over midflight to take over the second portion but that should be well briefed before and the second pilot should be monitoring every move from the back so that when the changeover occurs the confusion element is kep to a minimum.
Pace
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GEP, let's not get our wires crossed; I agree totally with your key points, namely, the degree of risk. It is absolutely safer to land and swap over (because we're all much better (hopefully!) and have received more training in landing an aeroplane than changing seats in flight).
Sorry to spoil the natural forum instinct to armchair-police anything of this sort.
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421C said:
421c - Reading the thread does explain the circumstances
Who's to say it's safer? We know nothing about the circumstances specifically
The info was explicit, a PA28 - FIRST LESSON, swop seats front to back.
Equally I have heard from someone who was present at the pre flight briefing that the instructor cut the briefing short because he thought it was "boring"...... The planned flight was to go to another airfield to do the changeover of students (one flying to the destination, the other flying back) For some reason the instructor decided to do the change over in flight.
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 10th Jun 2012 at 16:14.
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I have had people moving front to back many times, while I was flying. There is nothing inherently wrong with it and if it can be done easily it is far safer than landing and taking off again.
My girlfriend often moves to the back on long trips, where there is more room and she can read or sleep. Or prepare lunch
The real problem is that most light planes are a bit too cramped to make it easy. Even the TBM850 (which I have flown LHS) is difficult in this respect; one's legs only just squeeze between the centre console and the seat.
Also the person moving has to be quite "compact" and flexible. Many people are way too obese to be able to move at all. If they tried, they would smash up the headset connections etc. One of the reasons why the internals of the "single door" planes like the PA28 family are often in such poor condition is because heavy people have to climb in awkwardly, putting their weight on the seat backs, standing on the seats, etc.
My girlfriend often moves to the back on long trips, where there is more room and she can read or sleep. Or prepare lunch
The real problem is that most light planes are a bit too cramped to make it easy. Even the TBM850 (which I have flown LHS) is difficult in this respect; one's legs only just squeeze between the centre console and the seat.
Also the person moving has to be quite "compact" and flexible. Many people are way too obese to be able to move at all. If they tried, they would smash up the headset connections etc. One of the reasons why the internals of the "single door" planes like the PA28 family are often in such poor condition is because heavy people have to climb in awkwardly, putting their weight on the seat backs, standing on the seats, etc.
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Peter, what a fantastic idea, I presume your aircraft is posh and has lots of room. It must be great to be able for your girlfriend to pop over into the back seat and prepare lunch. Do you join her and leave the plane on autopilot? Is it a cooked lunch?
PS: I presume the autopilot on your plane is better than the one in the Aeroplane movie?
PS: I presume the autopilot on your plane is better than the one in the Aeroplane movie?
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Knowing both peterh337 and 421C, I am pretty certain that their landings and take-offs are safer than swapping seats in a PA28, but I accept their challenge (although I am sure there is a bit of a "devil's advocate" in bot of them ).
And peterh337 only wants to show off by letting us all know how compact and flexible his SO is.
In the meantime, have a look at that accident report (G-BKCB, which contains a lot of conjecture about possible inadvertent contol inputs, with speculation almost as bad as sometimes found here). The salient point is that the aircraft took only 4-5 seconds to break up after an inadvertend control input that only lasted 1-2 seconds.
Even with my landings not being the best, I would rather take my chances. Not that I think that an inadvertent control input is LIKELY, but it only takes the chap climbing into the back kicking the control column fully forward to tear the wings off almost immediately if the aircraft is fast enough.
).And peterh337 only wants to show off by letting us all know how compact and flexible his SO is.
In the meantime, have a look at that accident report (G-BKCB, which contains a lot of conjecture about possible inadvertent contol inputs, with speculation almost as bad as sometimes found here). The salient point is that the aircraft took only 4-5 seconds to break up after an inadvertend control input that only lasted 1-2 seconds.
Even with my landings not being the best, I would rather take my chances. Not that I think that an inadvertent control input is LIKELY, but it only takes the chap climbing into the back kicking the control column fully forward to tear the wings off almost immediately if the aircraft is fast enough.
Last edited by Cobalt; 10th Jun 2012 at 20:29.
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I had two students swap over yesterday in the middle of the flight ..... they both climbed outside the aeroplane .... while we were moving ! And the engine was running ......
How did we do that?
How did we do that?
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No - this is pretty boring, Peter H having his partner climb in the back to make his lunch thats boring. If she had fired up the BBQ climbing over into the back seat that would have been more impressive.
The question of the students changing seats by going outside the aeroplane, again that's old hat. This student goes on further and during a gliding aerobatic trial lesson sold by Wagitt Voucher flights changes aeroplane....
The question of the students changing seats by going outside the aeroplane, again that's old hat. This student goes on further and during a gliding aerobatic trial lesson sold by Wagitt Voucher flights changes aeroplane....
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If my gurl was reading this she would be very flattered, though not suprised
I think your SO is about the same size as my SO, Cobalt
It takes an awfully long time to descend from FL180 and climb back up there again. Probably best part of an hour, all in all. And the whole reason one is at FL180 in the first place is because of icing conditions below. A landing and a climb would not be a good idea at all.
Yes it is a cooked lunch sometimes but not cooked in the plane. We did try a calor gas BBQ in the back of the plane once but they are tricky. You have to get them just right. If the food gets charred, it is carcinogenic, you know. Anyway, a BBQ is a man's job, and I have to be up front to keep an eye on the autopilot.
I think your SO is about the same size as my SO, Cobalt
It takes an awfully long time to descend from FL180 and climb back up there again. Probably best part of an hour, all in all. And the whole reason one is at FL180 in the first place is because of icing conditions below. A landing and a climb would not be a good idea at all.
Yes it is a cooked lunch sometimes but not cooked in the plane. We did try a calor gas BBQ in the back of the plane once but they are tricky. You have to get them just right. If the food gets charred, it is carcinogenic, you know. Anyway, a BBQ is a man's job, and I have to be up front to keep an eye on the autopilot.
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Of course the BBQ did not work at FL180, it needs Oxygen, too! Next time, just take an extra bottle and direct the flow onto the coals, it will do wonders! Also keeps the Carbon Monoxide low.
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Ha! That's why the BBQ didn't work. Never thought of that.
Next time I will take a feed off the oxygen cylinder, after the 1st stage regulator. O2 at 20psi ought to be quite effective...
Carbon monoxide should really exist if you run at peak EGT or LOP. Can one run a BBQ LOP?
Next time I will take a feed off the oxygen cylinder, after the 1st stage regulator. O2 at 20psi ought to be quite effective...
Carbon monoxide should really exist if you run at peak EGT or LOP. Can one run a BBQ LOP?
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How silly of me - I forgot about the lack of oxygen and the carbon monoxide risk. I take the oxygen for granted as I have got used to a pressurised aircraft, also the rate of climb - wow, an hour to FL180 and back, I take a sub ten minute climb to FL180 for granted, and can still see full power.
Good job I did not try the BBQ - some bacon in flight was tempting!!
Good job I did not try the BBQ - some bacon in flight was tempting!!
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Peter please don't screw around with 100% O2.
If you don't have the right none return valves etc its more than likely that you will put 100% O2 into your gas canister and it will blow up.
Personally I have done something equally stupid in the past on the ground and more by luck than judgment I got away with it.
It took 24hours and a skip full of water to sort out and I was extremely lucky.
From memory and this is out on a limb here.
I think a LPG bottle is at 2 bar at 20deg which is 30psi ish.
Anyway funny things happen at low pressurise when you try and cook. At FL180 boiling point is down to 75degs or less? so you can't make a decent cup of tea and other funny things happen. Which is one of the reasons they don't cook in space the water boils out of most things before it is cooked and you normally end up with warm charred billatong if your trying to cook meat
If you don't have the right none return valves etc its more than likely that you will put 100% O2 into your gas canister and it will blow up.
Personally I have done something equally stupid in the past on the ground and more by luck than judgment I got away with it.
It took 24hours and a skip full of water to sort out and I was extremely lucky.
From memory and this is out on a limb here.
I think a LPG bottle is at 2 bar at 20deg which is 30psi ish.
Anyway funny things happen at low pressurise when you try and cook. At FL180 boiling point is down to 75degs or less? so you can't make a decent cup of tea and other funny things happen. Which is one of the reasons they don't cook in space the water boils out of most things before it is cooked and you normally end up with warm charred billatong if your trying to cook meat
Last edited by mad_jock; 11th Jun 2012 at 08:14.
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MJ, You are about right - hence the need to put small camping cylinders in the freezer before charging them from a room temperature "large" Propane cylinder (ensures a liquid gas charge)
