Stall Spin Awareness/Recovery
I understand from a mutual friend that you're off microlighting sometime soon Jock.
Get somebody to demonstrate for you a spiral dive and recovery in a flexwing. I think you'll find it quite entertaining.
G
Get somebody to demonstrate for you a spiral dive and recovery in a flexwing. I think you'll find it quite entertaining.
G
You can't spin a flexwing - too much directional stability and no separate yaw control, but you can have fun with spiral dives. 60 degree bank turns are reasonably entertaining as well.
All microlights in the UK with an MTOW above 390kg will have been spin tested, and possibly one or two under that. I don't think any are cleared for deliberate spinning at present. The spin recovery is generally throttle closed / stick central / rudder central (all at the same time).
G
All microlights in the UK with an MTOW above 390kg will have been spin tested, and possibly one or two under that. I don't think any are cleared for deliberate spinning at present. The spin recovery is generally throttle closed / stick central / rudder central (all at the same time).
G
Actually all the microlights I've spun (in flight test programmes) have been as benign, or more, than a C150. BUT in my opinion the rudder central recovery is important, to avoid occassional attempts to kick into a spin the other way - there has always been more than enough rudder power to recover in half a turn with central rudder.
Doing it without doors mind you, once or twice, I'm in no great hurry to repeat - but required in programmes for aeroplanes with removeable doors.
G
Doing it without doors mind you, once or twice, I'm in no great hurry to repeat - but required in programmes for aeroplanes with removeable doors.
G
Pilot DAR
Spiral dives are a flight test item for the Canadian PPL. Recovery from an incipient spin is also tested. Personally I think this represents a sensible balance between flight training safety and the assurance that essential stall/spin recognition and recovery skills exist in students.
Pace
I asked the question about whether or not you had experience with ab initio training, not to be jerk but because this thread is about spins in the context of the PPL, or ab initio training.
The fundemental difference that ab initio training has over every other kind of training is that it represents the transition from No knowledge or skills to safe flying skills and knowledge. All subsequent training will take existing skills and either expand them or apply them in another way.
Norms and expectations for advanced training are often just not applicable or relevant to ab initio training.........
As I have said repeatedly I am not against spin training, in fact I encourage it in all my PPL graduates, as part a post PPL aerobatics course, just Not during ab initio training.
How would you feel if a Cessna 150 driver told you were flying your Citation all wrong. I bet you would think " he doesn't know anything about flying jets so why does he think he can comment on how I should fly my jet"
Well with respect to comments on how to do ab initio training that is
sometimes how I feel.......
In any case the true problem with PPL training is not a lack of emphasis on advanced flying skills it is a lack of emphasis on basic flying skills !
It is very discouraging to fly with recent PPL graduates and observe that they can not fly at a stable pitch attitude, that the airplane is not properly trimmed, that the aircraft is not balanced, that there are continual significant airspeed and altitude excursions etc etc. That is where flying instruction needs to improve. Instructors IMO are not demanding enough of their students.
Spiral dives are a flight test item for the Canadian PPL. Recovery from an incipient spin is also tested. Personally I think this represents a sensible balance between flight training safety and the assurance that essential stall/spin recognition and recovery skills exist in students.
Pace
I asked the question about whether or not you had experience with ab initio training, not to be jerk but because this thread is about spins in the context of the PPL, or ab initio training.
The fundemental difference that ab initio training has over every other kind of training is that it represents the transition from No knowledge or skills to safe flying skills and knowledge. All subsequent training will take existing skills and either expand them or apply them in another way.
Norms and expectations for advanced training are often just not applicable or relevant to ab initio training.........
As I have said repeatedly I am not against spin training, in fact I encourage it in all my PPL graduates, as part a post PPL aerobatics course, just Not during ab initio training.
How would you feel if a Cessna 150 driver told you were flying your Citation all wrong. I bet you would think " he doesn't know anything about flying jets so why does he think he can comment on how I should fly my jet"
Well with respect to comments on how to do ab initio training that is
sometimes how I feel.......
In any case the true problem with PPL training is not a lack of emphasis on advanced flying skills it is a lack of emphasis on basic flying skills !
It is very discouraging to fly with recent PPL graduates and observe that they can not fly at a stable pitch attitude, that the airplane is not properly trimmed, that the aircraft is not balanced, that there are continual significant airspeed and altitude excursions etc etc. That is where flying instruction needs to improve. Instructors IMO are not demanding enough of their students.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 22nd May 2012 at 17:58.
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It is very discouraging to fly with recent PPL graduates and observe that they can not fly at a stable pitch attitude, that the airplane is not properly trimmed, that the aircraft is not balanced, that there are continual significant airspeed and altitude excursions etc etc. That is where flying instruction needs to improve. Instructors IMO are not demanding enough of their students.
Transitioning from the PA38/28 to the Chippy made me very aware of the 'bad habits' I'd been allowed to get away with during initial training & my spamcan flying improved noticeably afterwards.
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I am sorry to say they can not only get through the PPL not being able to do as BPF says but also one of the first lessons as a line trainer is quite often the same thing with the commercial pilots who hold cpl/IR and a type rating.
Its this whole rushing ex 1-14 that does it. There is no foundations to build a solid skill base on.
Its this whole rushing ex 1-14 that does it. There is no foundations to build a solid skill base on.
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I asked the question about whether or not you had experience with ab initio training, not to be jerk but because this thread is about spins in the context of the PPL, or ab initio training.
Many moons ago when I did my PPL training we had to spin. Ok a 152 but spins are fun stable and far more pleasant than the spiral dive which itself is aerobatic and in my opinion also carries a risk of breaking the aeroplane.
That is not my point!!! It is a change of emphasis from handling pilots to training to recovery to incipient in numerous areas.
That worrries me as we are not training pilots to experience and deal with situations they may get into which are beyond incipient.
Forget spinning for a moment as this goes further than the spin but looks at training which is becoming more and more avoidance and hence a dangerous principal to follow.
Sadly avoidance is short sighted as avoidance is often missed leading to full blown in reality
Pace
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The problem I saw with spin training when it was in the syllabus was that often it was done in an aircraft that, whilst cleared for spinning, actually did it very badly, often not remaining in a spin even with full pro spin controls, the result was that this training was often rushed, leading to bad training and the feeling in students that spinning was a frightening process. Whilst I would certainly strongly encourage PPL students to do spinning I would hate to see us return to that situation.
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Talking about altitude excursions et al; doing the IMC rating really tightened my flying up. Mind you, it's easy to fly accurately when you are staring at the instruments. Having said that, if I never have to do an instrument approach in anger, the IMC was worth it because what I learned about accurate flying has crossed over into my VFR flying, I don't like being more than 50' either side of my chosen altitude or more than a couple of degrees off chosen heading. Not that it matters so much I suppose, it's just a question of having some pride in your flying.
Moderator
Thing has mentioned IMC. This mention, in conjunction with another newer thread (where this comment does not belong), in which there has been speculation about a loss of control after entering IMC, seems to be a parallel situation to spins in some ways.
It seems normal and appropriate that all pilots should be taught some basic instrument flying skills, so they have a chance of extracting themselves upright from careless entry into IMC. Is teaching avoidance of IMC not working? If not, teaching managing those conditions just enough to get back out safely is obviously vital.
How would careless spin entry be any different? If teaching avoidance of IMC is not working, how would teaching avoidance of spins work?
It seems normal and appropriate that all pilots should be taught some basic instrument flying skills, so they have a chance of extracting themselves upright from careless entry into IMC. Is teaching avoidance of IMC not working? If not, teaching managing those conditions just enough to get back out safely is obviously vital.
How would careless spin entry be any different? If teaching avoidance of IMC is not working, how would teaching avoidance of spins work?
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It is totally apparent that whilst training, pupils must be given actual awareness of the events they may encounter. If the drive is to avoid all elements of flight that would get you into trouble, and the pupil has not been shown/experienced these events, then that is only going to end in tears. Foxmouth quoted that some clubs did not even have the correct equipment to show the pupil stall/spin/dive, then frankly, the club should not exist.
Back to basic flying skills are the bedrock. Without that then we will continue to have CFIT/Uncontrolled flight into terrian (stall/spin).
Whether we like it or not, it is a part of flying that, to the un initiated, can kill you, quickly.
Back to basic flying skills are the bedrock. Without that then we will continue to have CFIT/Uncontrolled flight into terrian (stall/spin).
Whether we like it or not, it is a part of flying that, to the un initiated, can kill you, quickly.
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Teaching avoidance works in the same way. You could compare basic instrument flying skills to incipient spin recovery skills. They will help you get out of trouble but at some point are going to be insufficient. They are both included in the PPL at the moment.
A problem for the IMC scenario is that not all aircraft have the instruments you ideally want to get out of IMC, i.e. no attitude indicator (like mine).
To compound the problem you could enter a spin inadvertently after inadvertently entering IMC, and then you probably will be screwed! I think you'll need a turn and slip indicator for that one?
A problem for the IMC scenario is that not all aircraft have the instruments you ideally want to get out of IMC, i.e. no attitude indicator (like mine).
To compound the problem you could enter a spin inadvertently after inadvertently entering IMC, and then you probably will be screwed! I think you'll need a turn and slip indicator for that one?
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It seems normal and appropriate that all pilots should be taught some basic instrument flying skills, so they have a chance of extracting themselves upright from careless entry into IMC.
In other words I think a lot of 'inadvertent' IMC excursions aren't inadvertent at all. I think it's poor judgement that leads a lot of pilot's into IMC misery and perhaps that's what FTO's should be working on.
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As I have said repeatedly I am not against spin training, in fact I encourage it in all my PPL graduates, as part a post PPL aerobatics course, just Not during ab initio training.
Denti
Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say "spin awareness training"?
Also was the ab initio training you were talking about part of Military flight training or an Airline college program ?
Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say "spin awareness training"?
Also was the ab initio training you were talking about part of Military flight training or an Airline college program ?
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How can you teach spin awareness without at least entering the early parts of a spin?
I have a big problem getting my head around any incipient training for one reason.
The time you are likely to enter any of these situations are more likely to be when you are not aware.
Distracted in a panic? your full attention somewhere else? Ie the first you are likely to know is when your in the full blooded thing!!!
Loss of control in cloud is easy and hence a further arguement for traing pilots to handle aircraft properly and not to incipient.
Often a VFR pilot will get in cloud because they are forced to by lowering cloud reducing visibility and rising ground.
It is not only then that visual reference can be lost. Crossing water VFR in poor vis can disorientate the VFR pilot and that is VFR out of cloud!
Incipient is just not good enough
Pace
I have a big problem getting my head around any incipient training for one reason.
The time you are likely to enter any of these situations are more likely to be when you are not aware.
Distracted in a panic? your full attention somewhere else? Ie the first you are likely to know is when your in the full blooded thing!!!
Loss of control in cloud is easy and hence a further arguement for traing pilots to handle aircraft properly and not to incipient.
Often a VFR pilot will get in cloud because they are forced to by lowering cloud reducing visibility and rising ground.
It is not only then that visual reference can be lost. Crossing water VFR in poor vis can disorientate the VFR pilot and that is VFR out of cloud!
Incipient is just not good enough
Pace