Piper Turbo Arrow IV .. Am I nuts??
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Piper Turbo Arrow IV .. Am I nuts??
Hi there!
I did a couple of hours in a Piper Turbo Arrow IV some time ago...
Conclusion:
It takes forever to get it in the air and even when it finally reaches Vr it nearly takes both arm to rotate that thing and get it off the ground.
In general the controls feel annoyingly unbalanced with the very heavy elevator compared to the light rudder and the ailerons somewhere in the middle. While this is not a big issue in cruise flight it gets quite annoying during approach speeds. Oh and to make sure you are on the runway before the tail stops flying is another challenge one has to get used to...
The trim wheel sits in a completely unhandy position if you want to use it manually and do I really need to comment about the manual flaps?
On top of that the fact that it has only one cockpit door makes me feel claustrophobic and scares the sh*t out of me over water.
Despite all of this I start to like that aircraft for touring and feel like a Turbo Arrow IV would be a nice aircraft to own one day...
what is wrong with me??
cheers
maehhh
I did a couple of hours in a Piper Turbo Arrow IV some time ago...
Conclusion:
It takes forever to get it in the air and even when it finally reaches Vr it nearly takes both arm to rotate that thing and get it off the ground.
In general the controls feel annoyingly unbalanced with the very heavy elevator compared to the light rudder and the ailerons somewhere in the middle. While this is not a big issue in cruise flight it gets quite annoying during approach speeds. Oh and to make sure you are on the runway before the tail stops flying is another challenge one has to get used to...
The trim wheel sits in a completely unhandy position if you want to use it manually and do I really need to comment about the manual flaps?
On top of that the fact that it has only one cockpit door makes me feel claustrophobic and scares the sh*t out of me over water.
Despite all of this I start to like that aircraft for touring and feel like a Turbo Arrow IV would be a nice aircraft to own one day...
what is wrong with me??
cheers
maehhh
Most of your criticisms are generic to the PA28, and would apply equally to an old Cherokee 140. But they are a fantastically successful family of aeroplanes, and very comfortable tourers. The Arrows, unlike the "smaller" models have a fairly reasonable payload as well.
Personally I enjoy flying them, and a Turbo Arrow is one of my favourites if I'm in the USA and want to rent a tourer.
Would I own one? No. Retractable gear and a variable pitch prop carry a large maintenance cost overhead for a private owner, and the extra bit of speed for me is not worth the substantially increased running costs. Plus I do think that there are nicer handling aeroplanes than the PA28, with a similar or better payload. The C182 or the AA5b Tiger for example.
So personally I like to (and do) own a (share in a) medium performance, fixed gear, fixed pitch, Grumman AA5 that does me very nicely thank you. It cruises at 105 compared to the 130 I'd get out of a Turbo Arrow, but still will get to all of the same places, costs roughly half per hour what the TA would cost me, and has a better view out and lighter handling.
And I shall enjoy the Turbo Arrow whose economies are met by a busy FBO, and are happy to rent it to me, when I'm in the USA with a few days spare.
G
Personally I enjoy flying them, and a Turbo Arrow is one of my favourites if I'm in the USA and want to rent a tourer.
Would I own one? No. Retractable gear and a variable pitch prop carry a large maintenance cost overhead for a private owner, and the extra bit of speed for me is not worth the substantially increased running costs. Plus I do think that there are nicer handling aeroplanes than the PA28, with a similar or better payload. The C182 or the AA5b Tiger for example.
So personally I like to (and do) own a (share in a) medium performance, fixed gear, fixed pitch, Grumman AA5 that does me very nicely thank you. It cruises at 105 compared to the 130 I'd get out of a Turbo Arrow, but still will get to all of the same places, costs roughly half per hour what the TA would cost me, and has a better view out and lighter handling.
And I shall enjoy the Turbo Arrow whose economies are met by a busy FBO, and are happy to rent it to me, when I'm in the USA with a few days spare.
G
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Retractable gear and a variable pitch prop carry a large maintenance cost overhead for a private owner
I fly a TB20 whose landing gear has cost me practically nothing over 10 years, but then I pay an extra ~£200 every year to have it properly greased. The VP prop costs more than a fixed pitch prop but in terms of direct flying cost it is of the order of £3/hr extra which is easily recouped in the fuel saving through having a much better performing aircraft. The retractable gear costs are recouped many times over through the 10-20% fuel saving for the same IAS (Cirrus salesmen will vigorously deny that, but they would say that
).Having said that, I would choose a TB20 anytime over an Arrow - the two don't even begin to compare for a human-friendly modern cockpit.
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Weight and BALANCE?
Just a thought from a casual observer, but I recall flying some in the States with 50lbs of lead shot in the luggage compartment behind the seats. Without, it would have been very close to, if not exceeding forward CG limits with 2 people up front.
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It's the Turbo that I question. I've only found an advantage when operating above the altitude at which a normally aspirated engine needs full throttle to maintain a desired % power.
I've also seen the bill for the recovery from France and new turbo in an Arrer
Although the 182 will develop your arm muscles holding the elevators back, it's a much more capable a/c imho.
SGC
I've also seen the bill for the recovery from France and new turbo in an Arrer
Although the 182 will develop your arm muscles holding the elevators back, it's a much more capable a/c imho.
SGC
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Please don't expect me to make a habit of it!
What I forgot to add is that if you are going to buy a plane that is totally shagged and you want to run it into the ground or on a very tight budget (which is basically what happens in a large % of the GA scene, especially the training fleet) then retractable gear is a bad idea. People have all sorts of problems with it, made worse by the unwillingness of maintenance companies to do what they see as "extra work" for their standard Annual charge of say £2500 or whatever.
I recall flying some in the States with 50lbs of lead shot in the luggage compartment behind the seats. Without, it would have been very close to, if not exceeding forward CG limits with 2 people up front.
I recall reading a similar story about a Bonanza, I think. In comparison, the TB20 is practically impossible to load outside the envelope without exceeding the MTOW.
It's the Turbo that I question. I've only found an advantage when operating above the altitude at which a normally aspirated engine needs full throttle to maintain a desired % power.
I would expect a turbo arrow to beat the 30 minutes by a decent margin; the Q is what value this brings in practice. I think that to get that (the ability to climb through icing layers) one also needs de-ice. If I bought a TB21 I would get one with full TKS.
Last edited by peterh337; 13th May 2012 at 09:07.
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There are far better PA28s out there.
Firstly, don't even consider the T tail - a ridiculous change that brought nothing positive to the aircraft.
Wobbly wheels. Having owned an Arrow, I have be stung when the undercarriage needs even the most basc of maintenance.
Have you had a go at a PA28 (tirbo) Dakota? These are a nice compromise with a wobbly prop but faxed wheels.
All that said, I think there are better 'four seat' tourers out there. Ones which spring to mind include the higher end TB range, the Commanders etc
Firstly, don't even consider the T tail - a ridiculous change that brought nothing positive to the aircraft.
Wobbly wheels. Having owned an Arrow, I have be stung when the undercarriage needs even the most basc of maintenance.
Have you had a go at a PA28 (tirbo) Dakota? These are a nice compromise with a wobbly prop but faxed wheels.
All that said, I think there are better 'four seat' tourers out there. Ones which spring to mind include the higher end TB range, the Commanders etc
Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 13th May 2012 at 09:25.
Your purchase budget is a big player.
I think if I was looking for a reasonable sole-owned tourer with good IFR capability, and fair range and performance, I'd start looking perhaps at a Grumman Tiger or a C182, which are pretty economical. Personally I prefer the ergonomics and handling of the AA5 over either the PA28 or the C182, and I really like having my own door!
Without a doubt the TBs will offer a nicer and more capable aeroplane than any of these, but the purchase cost will also be substantially greater.
You will, ultimately, get what you can afford to buy.
G
I think if I was looking for a reasonable sole-owned tourer with good IFR capability, and fair range and performance, I'd start looking perhaps at a Grumman Tiger or a C182, which are pretty economical. Personally I prefer the ergonomics and handling of the AA5 over either the PA28 or the C182, and I really like having my own door!
Without a doubt the TBs will offer a nicer and more capable aeroplane than any of these, but the purchase cost will also be substantially greater.
You will, ultimately, get what you can afford to buy.
G
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Well first of all I agree a TB20/21 is a delight to fly and I wouldn't want to miss a single hour I spent in it so far 
TB20? Any day!
However from a renters point of view:
Even if the undercarriage and the turbo can be hassle when it comes to maintenance it is not really your business... And if you bring a Turbo Arrow up to a decent altitude (lets say FL100 or higher) TAS will be close to a TB20 but the hourly rate is way cheaper...
TB20? Any day!However from a renters point of view:
Even if the undercarriage and the turbo can be hassle when it comes to maintenance it is not really your business... And if you bring a Turbo Arrow up to a decent altitude (lets say FL100 or higher) TAS will be close to a TB20 but the hourly rate is way cheaper...
Piper Turbo Arrow IV
Cows get bigger states:
Is this based on definitive long-term experience or mere 'hangar' talk!
Having owned a T tail Arrow IV for the last 5 years, (and flown some 500 hours in it), I am curious as to what the hostility is based on.
If I had to chose a plane simply for its looks, then I would not have 'added' the T tail; but as it exists - with no practical disadvantages (other than its appearance) - I am grateful for the false criticisms Arrow IV's receive, since it reduces its selling price and I was happy to 'save' over £15,000 five years ago because of 'false' rumours.
I have never had any problem with the tail: In fact, although the recommended landing speed is 75 knots, I have sometimes used 60/65 knots on short fields with no loss of control whatever.
To me, the Turbo and Variable Prop are real bonuses if you enjoy long high touring. They save fuel, and allow faster, more economical flying especially at FL 100+. Properly maintained, I believe they have actually saved me money due to more power and efficient fuel burn.
Although there are more modern, slicker planes out there on the block - at a price (like the Cirrus?) - often their payload and/or ability to land in short fields is compromised.
Every plane is a balance of choices/priorities: but for me, who wants a good tourer with no weight problems + long range tanks and a reasonable cruise speed and the ability to get in/out of 500 metre fields, my PA28RT fits the bill. I have no regrets.
. . . don't even consider the T tail.
Having owned a T tail Arrow IV for the last 5 years, (and flown some 500 hours in it), I am curious as to what the hostility is based on.
If I had to chose a plane simply for its looks, then I would not have 'added' the T tail; but as it exists - with no practical disadvantages (other than its appearance) - I am grateful for the false criticisms Arrow IV's receive, since it reduces its selling price and I was happy to 'save' over £15,000 five years ago because of 'false' rumours.
I have never had any problem with the tail: In fact, although the recommended landing speed is 75 knots, I have sometimes used 60/65 knots on short fields with no loss of control whatever.
To me, the Turbo and Variable Prop are real bonuses if you enjoy long high touring. They save fuel, and allow faster, more economical flying especially at FL 100+. Properly maintained, I believe they have actually saved me money due to more power and efficient fuel burn.
Although there are more modern, slicker planes out there on the block - at a price (like the Cirrus?) - often their payload and/or ability to land in short fields is compromised.
Every plane is a balance of choices/priorities: but for me, who wants a good tourer with no weight problems + long range tanks and a reasonable cruise speed and the ability to get in/out of 500 metre fields, my PA28RT fits the bill. I have no regrets.
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FPG, my comments come as a past owner of an Arrow I and a few hundred hours CPL instruction on an Arrow IV. In no particular order:
A pain for engineers and routine maintenance.
Less responsive in pitch.
Faster approach speeds = longer landing distance.
A 'feeling' that the aircraft really doesn't want to fly when taking-off.
Basically, I don't think the T tail made any improvement and, casting everything else aside, brings a heavier engineering bill.
A pain for engineers and routine maintenance.
Less responsive in pitch.
Faster approach speeds = longer landing distance.
A 'feeling' that the aircraft really doesn't want to fly when taking-off.
Basically, I don't think the T tail made any improvement and, casting everything else aside, brings a heavier engineering bill.
Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 13th May 2012 at 17:11.
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Just a thought from a casual observer, but I recall flying some in the States with 50lbs of lead shot in the luggage compartment behind the seats. Without, it would have been very close to, if not exceeding forward CG limits with 2 people up front.
I've flown with a bag full of house bricks in the luggage compartment before.
Last edited by thing; 13th May 2012 at 17:35.
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Hmmm, I honestly can't think of a reason that you'd want one over a Cherokee 6, a C182 or a TB20 (you can get one for nice Arrow IV money)
If I was to own it myself a 182 would be unquestionably the one I'd want simply because it's the most flexible in terms of places it can get in to and because of the gear alone will also be the cheapest to own and fairly cheap to buy.
The TB20 will be the most expensive to run but will also be the fastest and most comfortable so for distance touring wins every time
The Cherokee 6 will be relatively cheap to purchase, have a greater ownership cost than the 182 but has a bit more of a touring capability.
For similar spec Turbo Arrow IV money these are all very achievable and ownership costs would be very similar perhaps with the exception of insurance costs being higher for 6 seat aircraft.
There's just more suitable planes out there for a private owner (imo!)
If I was to own it myself a 182 would be unquestionably the one I'd want simply because it's the most flexible in terms of places it can get in to and because of the gear alone will also be the cheapest to own and fairly cheap to buy.
The TB20 will be the most expensive to run but will also be the fastest and most comfortable so for distance touring wins every time
The Cherokee 6 will be relatively cheap to purchase, have a greater ownership cost than the 182 but has a bit more of a touring capability.
For similar spec Turbo Arrow IV money these are all very achievable and ownership costs would be very similar perhaps with the exception of insurance costs being higher for 6 seat aircraft.
There's just more suitable planes out there for a private owner (imo!)
The other issue is the engine does not have a very good reputation. The TSIO 360 series seems to almost always require a midlife complete cylinder replacement to make it to TBO and the fixed waste gate turbocharging system is not very pilot friendly and can easily result in repeated overboost incidents. That combined with the lack of elevator effectiveness at low speeds and a rather cramped cabin make this airplane IMO not very appealing.
To my mind the best tourer for a PPL is a good C 182. Usefully fast, a great big comfortable cabin, high payload, simple systems, and very stable predictable flying qualities. It is IMO the nicest light aircraft to fly IFR ever made. At the average PPL annual use level the extra cost of fuel will be totally offset by lower maintenance and insurance costs over that of a retractable.
To my mind the best tourer for a PPL is a good C 182. Usefully fast, a great big comfortable cabin, high payload, simple systems, and very stable predictable flying qualities. It is IMO the nicest light aircraft to fly IFR ever made. At the average PPL annual use level the extra cost of fuel will be totally offset by lower maintenance and insurance costs over that of a retractable.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 13th May 2012 at 18:47.
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You want a four seat tourer - I've just been flying my Gardan Horizon - lovely!
I can carry 350Kg of payload with 5 1/2 hours of fuel at 120Kts - retractable and VP prop. I've not flown any PA28 above the basic Cherrokee/Warrior types but the Horizon looks better, handles much better, lands slower, carries more and has two large doors!
Mine had a landing gear collapse last year - due I believe to less than rigorous maintenance during the annual which was completed 9 hours previously. This incident trashed my newly overhauled Prop and basically wrote the aeroplane off. I took the insurance payment, bought the salvage and have spent the past six months funding repairs which came to a conclusion with the first flight three Sundays ago. I replaced the VP prop with a fixed one to minimise costs, bought a scrap airframe to scavenge for landing gear parts and had the engine thoroughly overhauled.
You might think I'm a bit mad as I could easily have bought a nice PA28 for the cost of repairing this Horizon but ... It's a very nice aeroplane and it simply deserved to be rescued!
There are of course costs associated with retractable and VP props; if you're going to have an aeroplane with these features you'd better not skimp on the maintenance - like the man said - you can pay me now or you can pay me later!!
What's the point of telling the story? Well, when you buy an aeroplane it's not just a simple technical evaluation based on performance figures and such - you have to like the thing!
I like my Horizon!
If the OP likes his Turbo Arrow good luck to him!
Happy landings to all
3 Point
I can carry 350Kg of payload with 5 1/2 hours of fuel at 120Kts - retractable and VP prop. I've not flown any PA28 above the basic Cherrokee/Warrior types but the Horizon looks better, handles much better, lands slower, carries more and has two large doors!
Mine had a landing gear collapse last year - due I believe to less than rigorous maintenance during the annual which was completed 9 hours previously. This incident trashed my newly overhauled Prop and basically wrote the aeroplane off. I took the insurance payment, bought the salvage and have spent the past six months funding repairs which came to a conclusion with the first flight three Sundays ago. I replaced the VP prop with a fixed one to minimise costs, bought a scrap airframe to scavenge for landing gear parts and had the engine thoroughly overhauled.
You might think I'm a bit mad as I could easily have bought a nice PA28 for the cost of repairing this Horizon but ... It's a very nice aeroplane and it simply deserved to be rescued!
There are of course costs associated with retractable and VP props; if you're going to have an aeroplane with these features you'd better not skimp on the maintenance - like the man said - you can pay me now or you can pay me later!!
What's the point of telling the story? Well, when you buy an aeroplane it's not just a simple technical evaluation based on performance figures and such - you have to like the thing!
I like my Horizon!
If the OP likes his Turbo Arrow good luck to him!
Happy landings to all
3 Point
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I've flown a Garden Horizontal; what a strange affair.
Firstly, you can't have the wheels down without flaps.
Secondly, to raise the gear and hence flaps one has to wind a lever on top of a tube between the seats. It must have been me but I couldn't wind with my right arm without pulling a pushing the yoke with my left.
Then there's the performance. Or lack. A number of my aircraft have had better performance without a CS prop and retractable gear. I used to fly a MiniCab which you can see in the Horizon and that was a more pleasurable experience.
Considering some of the whacky things I've owned I should be the last to comment, but Horizon vs PA28RT? C'mmon.
SGC
Firstly, you can't have the wheels down without flaps.
Secondly, to raise the gear and hence flaps one has to wind a lever on top of a tube between the seats. It must have been me but I couldn't wind with my right arm without pulling a pushing the yoke with my left.
Then there's the performance. Or lack. A number of my aircraft have had better performance without a CS prop and retractable gear. I used to fly a MiniCab which you can see in the Horizon and that was a more pleasurable experience.
Considering some of the whacky things I've owned I should be the last to comment, but Horizon vs PA28RT? C'mmon.
SGC
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The gear and flaps are a little odd, but one gets used to them in time. Performance? Don't compare it to an Arrow - it isn't one. Compared to a Cherokee though it comes off a bit better!
