Would you be happy for a loved one flying with a brand new PPL?
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Don't mind the thread drift thanks for all the posts - find it useful, although some of it seems tricky.
One additional question that I feel may be relevant: Apart from the current Orbit topic, what is the one thing (if any) you wish you were taught as part of your PPL but you weren't?
Vabsie
One additional question that I feel may be relevant: Apart from the current Orbit topic, what is the one thing (if any) you wish you were taught as part of your PPL but you weren't?
Vabsie
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I don't think there is just one thing that I wish I had learned. It's more a matter of recognising that the PPL experience was a little sample of most things, without in depth experience of many of them. I didn't do much in full ATC airfields, for example. So i just recognise that I need to build that experience.
I never had an SVFR experience so thats something which is on my mind for getting some experience. But I have no idea whether most PPLs would get experience of an SVFR clearance.
Flying over mountainous areas is another.
And, of course, the whole notion of going foreign isnt something one does at PPL. Well, I didn't.
I never had an SVFR experience so thats something which is on my mind for getting some experience. But I have no idea whether most PPLs would get experience of an SVFR clearance.
Flying over mountainous areas is another.
And, of course, the whole notion of going foreign isnt something one does at PPL. Well, I didn't.
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Its very linked to geographical postion in the country what some people are lacking and others get exposure to.
For example way up north flying through hills isn't an issue, but stick them on the easy down to Gatwick and send them off round the London TMA and that may cause issues. And vice versa.
Nothing special about SVFR most PPL's get exposed to it while doing a night qual if done at an airport in controlled airspace.
And the going foreign again is regional. Once you get away from the south coast/west coast to Ireland not may of the instructors will have done it either.
For example way up north flying through hills isn't an issue, but stick them on the easy down to Gatwick and send them off round the London TMA and that may cause issues. And vice versa.
Nothing special about SVFR most PPL's get exposed to it while doing a night qual if done at an airport in controlled airspace.
And the going foreign again is regional. Once you get away from the south coast/west coast to Ireland not may of the instructors will have done it either.
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I can remember doing an hour of circuit bashing, both instructor and me getting more frustrated with my lack of landing finesse...and then him getting out and telling me to go and sort it on my own! It worked 100% and not having the stress of him watching my every move was a key factor!
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I think that a lot of things which should be part of a pilots development might get missed. Birmingham did seem well located. It was busy airspace, it often needed a SVFR clearance to enter or exit the control zone, students had a busy time in the circuit and most instructors seemed to enjoy going with the student towards the end of the PPL for lunch in France.
MATZ crossing and penetration techniques was easily dealt with by a cross country to the east, a trip into Wales dealt with appreciation of hilly terrain and the route to Le Touquet from Birmingham built confidence.
Birmingham was / is not unique, it just takes a CFI who thinks out of the box rather than just working to the syllabus minimums and plans some interesting "points" to enhance the PPL course.
It was not uncommon to see someone after finishing the PPL have enough confidence to plan a weekend trip with their mates to Jersey or Dublin.
Of course a good club will always be keen to hone a PPL's skills after the licence is granted, group flying trips to interesting airfields in the club aircraft, planned weekends away, club lunch runs, treasure hunts etc all add to make a "club" rather than just a pure commercial venture. In my opinion that is more likely to be a long term sustainable business entity and will encourage spending of money post PPL.
MATZ crossing and penetration techniques was easily dealt with by a cross country to the east, a trip into Wales dealt with appreciation of hilly terrain and the route to Le Touquet from Birmingham built confidence.
Birmingham was / is not unique, it just takes a CFI who thinks out of the box rather than just working to the syllabus minimums and plans some interesting "points" to enhance the PPL course.
It was not uncommon to see someone after finishing the PPL have enough confidence to plan a weekend trip with their mates to Jersey or Dublin.
Of course a good club will always be keen to hone a PPL's skills after the licence is granted, group flying trips to interesting airfields in the club aircraft, planned weekends away, club lunch runs, treasure hunts etc all add to make a "club" rather than just a pure commercial venture. In my opinion that is more likely to be a long term sustainable business entity and will encourage spending of money post PPL.
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The problem with discussing what should be taught but isn't (lots IMHO) is that the majority of people who do a PPL are doing it to tick a "lifestyle achievement" box; a bit like walking up Kilimanjaro, getting laid (if you are 16), etc. They give up as soon as they've got it.
The schools need that business, and they would resist any broadening of the syllabus.
Otherwise, I would teach people how to fly A to B around Europe. It's not exactly hard. But look how many forum posts there are with subjects like "what's the best route from Blackbushe to Southend"? Makes you want to shoot their instructor
The schools need that business, and they would resist any broadening of the syllabus.
Otherwise, I would teach people how to fly A to B around Europe. It's not exactly hard. But look how many forum posts there are with subjects like "what's the best route from Blackbushe to Southend"? Makes you want to shoot their instructor
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The PPL is OK for a License to learn and the syllabus is just enough for 90% of the pilots.
The problem is that you can setup advanced courses but nobody wants to pay for them.
There are no books on going "international" so people come on the forums and ask for advice.
Maybe that could be your next project Peter you do seem to have a flare for writing these things up. Then publish it on a Kindle or as an ebook.
The problem is that you can setup advanced courses but nobody wants to pay for them.
There are no books on going "international" so people come on the forums and ask for advice.
Maybe that could be your next project Peter you do seem to have a flare for writing these things up. Then publish it on a Kindle or as an ebook.
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I would really like to see an aerobatic element chopped into the PPL later in the course as it worries me that too much is taught to incipient and not enough outside the envelope.
I worry that nowadays we are taught to be aeroplane drivers not pilots.
I would second that as Peters knowledge and attention to detail as well as his desire to help others is amazing
Pace
I worry that nowadays we are taught to be aeroplane drivers not pilots.
Maybe that could be your next project Peter you do seem to have a flare for writing these things up. Then publish it on a Kindle or as an ebook.
Pace
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...a bit like walking up Kilimanjaro, getting laid (if you are 16), etc. They give
up as soon as they've got it.
up as soon as they've got it.
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as it worries me that too much is taught to incipient and not enough outside the envelope.
My view now is to teach proper attitude flying and get the student to know the danger pictures out of the front and how to correct them when they see them.
Its the fixation on airspeed being the controlling factor in stalling which needs to be changed. Get the students thinking in terms of angle of attack and attitude and understanding whats going on seems to produce better results.
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I got my lady to go up in glider. I'd have flown with her, but the club rules and only few non-instructors authorised to fly the two seaters. Even old K13 isn't given to me, not just twin astir.. She's not too into flying, but she'd like to go up with me, to share some good time.
Regarding taking her up in helicopter, hm. Maybe briefly. We Robbie pilots know that things can go wrong at NO notice and despited being licensed instructor and having great maintenance, I still find it elevated risk compared to bimbling around in glider.
Fixed wing/aeroplane? Yeah, letting someone else fly my family/close ones, I'd like to have some 30-40 hours post-PPL in their logbook. I know how I was and felt. Not to green, not to cocky/laidback. Obviously, it's all case by case basis.
mad_jock,
we agree on this topic of unusual attitudes training, not just avoidance etc. Funnily enough, I wanted to practice actual spins in glider in one US club last year during checkout flight, but we only did it towards incipient and recovered. No emergencies (bar cable breaks) and no aerobatics. I'd not be let go solo in the UK on glider without spin and stall training or recurrent training after long time not flying solo.
Just how the hell are people going to deal with stuff if it really happens? Aggresive spin does freak out first handful of times. Coming to think of it, I've never done full on spin in SEP. I was up for it if enough safety altitude and clearing area, but probably partly due to instructors and partly due to school owner we didn't. How hard could it be in 172? Or Cub? Dang, the 150/152 recovers itself if let go.
Regarding taking her up in helicopter, hm. Maybe briefly. We Robbie pilots know that things can go wrong at NO notice and despited being licensed instructor and having great maintenance, I still find it elevated risk compared to bimbling around in glider.
Fixed wing/aeroplane? Yeah, letting someone else fly my family/close ones, I'd like to have some 30-40 hours post-PPL in their logbook. I know how I was and felt. Not to green, not to cocky/laidback. Obviously, it's all case by case basis.
mad_jock,
we agree on this topic of unusual attitudes training, not just avoidance etc. Funnily enough, I wanted to practice actual spins in glider in one US club last year during checkout flight, but we only did it towards incipient and recovered. No emergencies (bar cable breaks) and no aerobatics. I'd not be let go solo in the UK on glider without spin and stall training or recurrent training after long time not flying solo.
Just how the hell are people going to deal with stuff if it really happens? Aggresive spin does freak out first handful of times. Coming to think of it, I've never done full on spin in SEP. I was up for it if enough safety altitude and clearing area, but probably partly due to instructors and partly due to school owner we didn't. How hard could it be in 172? Or Cub? Dang, the 150/152 recovers itself if let go.
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I would say attitude training ie looking outthe soding window and knowing what the aircraft is doing.
The whole object though is it not to happen. As much as people would like to think it aids safety training for it, it actually used to kill more people than it saved.
The whole object though is it not to happen. As much as people would like to think it aids safety training for it, it actually used to kill more people than it saved.
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Mad jock
I came to flying after car racing in my early 20s
Driving a car at high speed and out of shape as well as spinning and crashing the things made me very comfortable with a car now and those skills saved my bacon on a number of occasions since.
I am sure you get my jist regarding planes?
Ok you may have to specify types for aerobatic training to avoid training accidents but incipient is a dangerous route to take !
Bad vis looking for the runway and incipient becomes real .
Aerobatic training may just give you the skills to save your bacon ; )
Pace
I came to flying after car racing in my early 20s
Driving a car at high speed and out of shape as well as spinning and crashing the things made me very comfortable with a car now and those skills saved my bacon on a number of occasions since.
I am sure you get my jist regarding planes?
Ok you may have to specify types for aerobatic training to avoid training accidents but incipient is a dangerous route to take !
Bad vis looking for the runway and incipient becomes real .
Aerobatic training may just give you the skills to save your bacon ; )
Pace
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I used to think the same as you but... One instructors seminar later and having a look at quite a few threads on here.
In a very very few cases it may help, but the boffins in the know crunched the numbers and found that it kills more people training for it than it saves.
Just a look at the AIBB reports over the last 10 years shows that folk stalling/spinning it in on finals doesn't carry a heavy butchers bill.
Now coming in to fast and sliding off the side or off the end so I would say the problem is to much energy rather than not enough to remian in controlled flight.
In a very very few cases it may help, but the boffins in the know crunched the numbers and found that it kills more people training for it than it saves.
Just a look at the AIBB reports over the last 10 years shows that folk stalling/spinning it in on finals doesn't carry a heavy butchers bill.
Now coming in to fast and sliding off the side or off the end so I would say the problem is to much energy rather than not enough to remian in controlled flight.
Avoid imitations
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I would trust a person with a brand new PPL as much the same as I would trust someone with a brand new driving licence.
For me, it's as much person specific as licence/hours specific.
Not just PPL holders, though. I've watched some rotary winged CPL hours builders fly "Pleasure Flights" at various events. I wouldn't want to be in the same aircraft as some of them, let alone play for the "pleasure".
For me, it's as much person specific as licence/hours specific.
Not just PPL holders, though. I've watched some rotary winged CPL hours builders fly "Pleasure Flights" at various events. I wouldn't want to be in the same aircraft as some of them, let alone play for the "pleasure".
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Mad jock
I am not suggesting that students go spin training in terror hawks but would recommend a few hours in a competant aerobatic machine.
I appreciate no two aircraft or even aircraft of the same but different weight or distribution will all spin in a different way but it's more about being a handling pilot rather than a driver!
It's the confidence you can only get by knowing what lies beyond the normal envelope.
I used to have examiners who would do full stalls with me in twins at 10 k in all configs and I am sure I am far better for that than the new ways!
In a way it's like flying in extremes. Extreme winds, shear , crosswinds and knowing you can handle the worst rather than only going out when the winds are max 10 it's
Pace
I am not suggesting that students go spin training in terror hawks but would recommend a few hours in a competant aerobatic machine.
I appreciate no two aircraft or even aircraft of the same but different weight or distribution will all spin in a different way but it's more about being a handling pilot rather than a driver!
It's the confidence you can only get by knowing what lies beyond the normal envelope.
I used to have examiners who would do full stalls with me in twins at 10 k in all configs and I am sure I am far better for that than the new ways!
In a way it's like flying in extremes. Extreme winds, shear , crosswinds and knowing you can handle the worst rather than only going out when the winds are max 10 it's
Pace
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I recall one accident in a light twin where the prop came off one engine, spun over the top of the airframe and ripped off the other engine. Instant, massive, aft C of G change, loss of airspeed and spin entry.
The pilot was ex-military; he recovered from the spin and landed in a field.
No "recovery at the incipient stage" training would have saved his bacon.
You can be trained to avoid "spinning" in a car. But if someone clonks your car into a skid, you'd be better off knowing how to deal with it. Everyone agrees that "skid pan" training is a good idea, don't they?
The thought of trying to recover from a spin in an aircraft without having been trained how to do it, or perhaps even without having seen it?....... no thanks.
I'm pleased to have been able to learn how to ride a motorbike and drive a car in wet, muddy farm fields, where skids were just part of the deal. Similarly, my military flying training introduced spinning quite early on in the syllabus (actually, it was still formly in the syllabus of the PPL back then in the early 1970s, which I completed).
Then almost every military GH training sortie included at least one spin. Pilots are of course also trained how to avoid them. You'd need to be very lucky to recover from a spin on short finals, flaps and gear down, etc. Irrespective of who trained you.
Rotary training also included full down EOL autos. You needed to be good at it because the rules prohibited re-engaging the engine for go-arounds once the throttle was closed. Again, not many PPLs get to do these to the ground.
The pilot was ex-military; he recovered from the spin and landed in a field.
No "recovery at the incipient stage" training would have saved his bacon.
You can be trained to avoid "spinning" in a car. But if someone clonks your car into a skid, you'd be better off knowing how to deal with it. Everyone agrees that "skid pan" training is a good idea, don't they?
The thought of trying to recover from a spin in an aircraft without having been trained how to do it, or perhaps even without having seen it?....... no thanks.
I'm pleased to have been able to learn how to ride a motorbike and drive a car in wet, muddy farm fields, where skids were just part of the deal. Similarly, my military flying training introduced spinning quite early on in the syllabus (actually, it was still formly in the syllabus of the PPL back then in the early 1970s, which I completed).
Then almost every military GH training sortie included at least one spin. Pilots are of course also trained how to avoid them. You'd need to be very lucky to recover from a spin on short finals, flaps and gear down, etc. Irrespective of who trained you.
Rotary training also included full down EOL autos. You needed to be good at it because the rules prohibited re-engaging the engine for go-arounds once the throttle was closed. Again, not many PPLs get to do these to the ground.
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Interesting question. My 2p worth...
Things I wish I had done more of on my ppl training:
Actual short field/soft field
More short solo x-c as confidence builder
Circle to alternate runway stuff as above
Go/no go weather analysis
Dead reckoning
'mission based' training - eg deliver an aircraft for maintenance and collect it as a solo navex - forcing trip to possibly more difficult/challenging destination, not joining 'by rote' to a regular x-c destination.
Things I was lucky to do and would recommend:
Train in a few different countries
Go foreign - my first long dual x-c blackbushe schipol
Do an actual IMC trip
Fly into big airports (APCH-TWR-GND-ATIS) as well as uncontrolled
Do some longer x-c
Things I wish I had done more of on my ppl training:
Actual short field/soft field
More short solo x-c as confidence builder
Circle to alternate runway stuff as above
Go/no go weather analysis
Dead reckoning
'mission based' training - eg deliver an aircraft for maintenance and collect it as a solo navex - forcing trip to possibly more difficult/challenging destination, not joining 'by rote' to a regular x-c destination.
Things I was lucky to do and would recommend:
Train in a few different countries
Go foreign - my first long dual x-c blackbushe schipol
Do an actual IMC trip
Fly into big airports (APCH-TWR-GND-ATIS) as well as uncontrolled
Do some longer x-c
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Personally it would depend on the person. If I knew the person well, I knew he was intelligent, level headed and sensible I'd be fine going up with him even if he only had 45 hours. But if it was somebody who was a bit rebellious, had a very lazy attitude or was a bit of a joker, I'd think twice.
At my club there's a PPL holder I know, has about 100 hours but you couldn't pay me to fly with him. I've heard him on the radio and as the saying goes, true or not, if you sound **** people assume you are ****. But it's not just that, I have witnessed myself the dangers he can be to others. I was speaking to our A/G operator and he told me be careful when he's up and about.
This one guy who was joining the circuit to land, not only did he approach for the wrong runway (thankfully our A/G was on the ball) it sounded like he had no clue what he was doing. He wasn't sure if he was joining crosswind making an overhead join. You could hear the uncertainty/confusion in his voice and our helpful radio guy sorted him out.
No disrespect to him, but that's someone I would never go up with. In his defence he hadn't finished training I think he was on a QXC or a solo land away. Scary his instructor let him tbh! It's probably not even the students fault.
And contrary to that, I've come across some inexperienced pilots who seem to have a very good grasp of what they're doing. I'd fly with them any day despite the lack of experience.
There's more to making a good pilot than training. Greater training does provide better pilots but there's more too it. Willingness to be good, intelligence etc. To be a good pilot you need to have the right personality as well. It's not just about passing tests. I'm sure most of you have seen Top Gun, Maverick was quite clearly a good pilot but he just had the wrong attitude. Quite clearly highly trained, but I wouldn't fly with him...even though it is just a film.
At my club there's a PPL holder I know, has about 100 hours but you couldn't pay me to fly with him. I've heard him on the radio and as the saying goes, true or not, if you sound **** people assume you are ****. But it's not just that, I have witnessed myself the dangers he can be to others. I was speaking to our A/G operator and he told me be careful when he's up and about.
This one guy who was joining the circuit to land, not only did he approach for the wrong runway (thankfully our A/G was on the ball) it sounded like he had no clue what he was doing. He wasn't sure if he was joining crosswind making an overhead join. You could hear the uncertainty/confusion in his voice and our helpful radio guy sorted him out.
No disrespect to him, but that's someone I would never go up with. In his defence he hadn't finished training I think he was on a QXC or a solo land away. Scary his instructor let him tbh! It's probably not even the students fault.
And contrary to that, I've come across some inexperienced pilots who seem to have a very good grasp of what they're doing. I'd fly with them any day despite the lack of experience.
There's more to making a good pilot than training. Greater training does provide better pilots but there's more too it. Willingness to be good, intelligence etc. To be a good pilot you need to have the right personality as well. It's not just about passing tests. I'm sure most of you have seen Top Gun, Maverick was quite clearly a good pilot but he just had the wrong attitude. Quite clearly highly trained, but I wouldn't fly with him...even though it is just a film.