PPL hour breakdown
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I second Wierdfish's statement about the "extras". Once you get onto Navigation you will need the whizz wheel, nav protractor and ruler etc etc...not forgetting keeping your charts updated annually (this is a legal requirement), exam fees...
Then what do you want to do afterwards? IMC (or whatever it will be) rating, night rating, aeros qualification? Formation flying?
..as others have said...its an expensive hobby...especially if you're going to throw yourself into it and do it properly (the only way to approach ones PPL training IMHO!!)
Then what do you want to do afterwards? IMC (or whatever it will be) rating, night rating, aeros qualification? Formation flying?
..as others have said...its an expensive hobby...especially if you're going to throw yourself into it and do it properly (the only way to approach ones PPL training IMHO!!)
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You pay for the time you fly.
When I learned to fly in Florida the lessons were scheduled in two-hour blocks. In such a two-hour block you would fly approximately one hour, and had another hour with the instructor for pre- and post flight briefings, preflight and so forth. Once I got to the x-country stage, the blocks became progressively larger of course. The total charge (airplane plus instructor) was based on hobbs time, so if we flew only 54 minutes, the hobbs would read 0.9 and I paid for 0.9 hours. Additionally, there was a set charge per hour one-on-one groundschool if you needed that.
At the club where I now fly we have freelance instructors. Lessons are again scheduled in two-hours blocks (by default, but that can be changed if required). The instructor is paid a fixed amount of money for his time, regardless of whether that's flying, briefings or ground school. So you pay the instructor for two hours if you booked a two-hour block. Easy. Furthermore, the aircraft are paid based on tacho or hobbs time (depends on the aircraft). So for a typical lesson you pay the instructor for two hours, and the aircraft for one hour.
But in any case, all this should have been made clear to you at the start of your first proper lesson so you know what to expect. In fact, both the school in Florida I went to, and my current club, will give each new student a talk-through of all the charges they can expect during their training, and how these charges are calculated.
My experience over 23 + years of flying instructing is the total cost of your license is almost totally controlled by two factors.
1) How often you fly. More is better as if there is a delay between flights you end up spending money relearning things you have already been taught but have forgotten or where the skill has faded. Starting in the summer is better in the winter as you get fewer cancellations due to bad weather and 3 lessons a week seems to be a good balance between maintaining recency but not being overwhelmed with new information and experiences.
2) How hard you work. Most of the knowledge piece of flying is in books. You can study it your self or pay big bucks to your instructor for him to teach it to you. I tell all of my students to keep a diary of their training. Make an entry after every flight with what you did, where you were told you need to work on and a list of questions on anything you did not understand for the next lesson. When it is raining and your lesson is cancelled sit in the aircraft and go through all you checks and emergency procedures.
Finally I tell everyone to budget for 50 % more than the school quotes for a 45 hr PPL. As was stated in earlier posts almost nobody does the course in the minimum time and you do not want to run out of money with the course 80% done.
1) How often you fly. More is better as if there is a delay between flights you end up spending money relearning things you have already been taught but have forgotten or where the skill has faded. Starting in the summer is better in the winter as you get fewer cancellations due to bad weather and 3 lessons a week seems to be a good balance between maintaining recency but not being overwhelmed with new information and experiences.
2) How hard you work. Most of the knowledge piece of flying is in books. You can study it your self or pay big bucks to your instructor for him to teach it to you. I tell all of my students to keep a diary of their training. Make an entry after every flight with what you did, where you were told you need to work on and a list of questions on anything you did not understand for the next lesson. When it is raining and your lesson is cancelled sit in the aircraft and go through all you checks and emergency procedures.
Finally I tell everyone to budget for 50 % more than the school quotes for a 45 hr PPL. As was stated in earlier posts almost nobody does the course in the minimum time and you do not want to run out of money with the course 80% done.
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Thanks, and no I can definitely afford it. Just don't want to pay more than I should, simple as that. But as I'll be paying for what I fly that can't happen, thanks bud ! 
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Not sure how your school at Biggin will charge, but at the school where I do most of my instructing just down the road at Redhill we charge for airborne time (i.e. take off to landing, measured by a meter that switches on above 30Kts) plus 0.2 hours taxy time (12 minutes). This is a good system because there is no incentive for the students to taxy too fast or skip the warm up. You won't end up paying more just because ATC keep you at the hold for a long time either.
The time you can log is from when you actually move off from parking up to when you get back to parking after the flight (or stop at the fuel bowser). This time is often more that the time charged for, especially during the early lessons when students take a long time to do their power checks.
The time you can log is from when you actually move off from parking up to when you get back to parking after the flight (or stop at the fuel bowser). This time is often more that the time charged for, especially during the early lessons when students take a long time to do their power checks.
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The 'little extras'
One other cost, often overlooked is the touch and goes (touches and go?). My last 'lesson' was 1:30 brakes off to brakes on, solo, with 9 T/G and one landing - came in a shade over £300. 
Don't focus too much on the hourly rate quoted.
Don't focus too much on the hourly rate quoted.
I've always steered clear of airports that charge by the landing to local aircraft.
I fly from one - and seldom do circuits there if I can avoid it. Everywhere else I fly routinely an annual membership that includes my landings. A far more sensible approach all round it seems to me since half the cost of charging per landing goes into the cost of charging per landing!
G
I fly from one - and seldom do circuits there if I can avoid it. Everywhere else I fly routinely an annual membership that includes my landings. A far more sensible approach all round it seems to me since half the cost of charging per landing goes into the cost of charging per landing!
G
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Slightly O/T
GtE - not sure if that was aimed directly at me... My dad has flown microlights for 20+ years, and has a lapsed PPL(A). However, flying from small, often unlicenced fields across the country has left him with little confidence in his RT and traffic procedures. His attitude to airspace is often 'keep low and don't talk to anyone unless you have to'.
That is one of the reasons I wanted to fly from a major airport, and be mixing it with the big stuff from day one. The RT, wake turbulence, variable circuit direction etc. all help build confidence IMO for the time when I actually want to go somewhere and do it 'properly'.
Granted it means paying a little more, but there is little choice in the North East (EGNC and EGNV both 2-hour round trips by car) when it comes to quality training establishments, and I feel while I am training it is money well spent. Even if I spend the rest of my post-qualified flying days hopping in and out of fields in Northumberland, at least I will know I can deal with the bigger, busier airports should I ever need to.
That is one of the reasons I wanted to fly from a major airport, and be mixing it with the big stuff from day one. The RT, wake turbulence, variable circuit direction etc. all help build confidence IMO for the time when I actually want to go somewhere and do it 'properly'.
Granted it means paying a little more, but there is little choice in the North East (EGNC and EGNV both 2-hour round trips by car) when it comes to quality training establishments, and I feel while I am training it is money well spent. Even if I spend the rest of my post-qualified flying days hopping in and out of fields in Northumberland, at least I will know I can deal with the bigger, busier airports should I ever need to.
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LD1Racing, I can't answer for GtE, however I would add that whether landings are charged in addition to the cost of the lesson does not necessarily relate to the size /type of airfield, in my experience. Some schools have arrangements with the airport where landings are included.
Also, whilst your outlook makes sense be careful not to use an airfield that is too busy with commercial traffic as this may well push costs and frustration levels higher than you anticipate through getting continually held at significant cost and inconvenience to training.
BB
Also, whilst your outlook makes sense be careful not to use an airfield that is too busy with commercial traffic as this may well push costs and frustration levels higher than you anticipate through getting continually held at significant cost and inconvenience to training.
BB
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The hourly rate, which includes one landing is around £140. The 9 T&G were because I wasn't widening out my circuits enough
Seriously, EGKB - when you start your training, you will reach a point where you must complete 3 hours solo in the circuit. Unless you are at a very busy AD, you will manage 4-6 T&G per hour. I was just unlucky that day, only had to orbit at the end of downwind twice.
Woolsington International Airport charge £11.50 IIRC for a T&G.
Seriously, EGKB - when you start your training, you will reach a point where you must complete 3 hours solo in the circuit. Unless you are at a very busy AD, you will manage 4-6 T&G per hour. I was just unlucky that day, only had to orbit at the end of downwind twice.
Woolsington International Airport charge £11.50 IIRC for a T&G.
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EGKB,
To add to LD1's post, when I was circuit bashing (all lesson in the circuit) I was regularly clocking up 7/8/9 touch and goes. These days I usually do a couple at the end of a lesson. Its all part of training i'm afraid! To put it in context, I completed 117 T&Gs before going solo...and still do both solo and dual circuits.
As an aside, I do not pay landing fees at my home airfield at all (Visiting civvy aircraft have to pay around £40 landing fees!)
To add to LD1's post, when I was circuit bashing (all lesson in the circuit) I was regularly clocking up 7/8/9 touch and goes. These days I usually do a couple at the end of a lesson. Its all part of training i'm afraid!
To put it in context, I completed 117 T&Gs before going solo...and still do both solo and dual circuits. As an aside, I do not pay landing fees at my home airfield at all
(Visiting civvy aircraft have to pay around £40 landing fees!)
Not aimed at anybody in particular, just a general comment. And it was about landing fees.
I learned many years ago at Old Sarum where a membership fee got me all of my landing fees. I often fly and occasionally instruct at Cranfield where the same is still true - £125pa and all my landings are covered. Cranfield is a busy airport with plenty to stretch anybody.
Occasionally I'll take a student to Enstone where they can do circuits all day for £25, which seems reasonably affordable.
I do agree that any pilot should ideally be comfortable at both a busy towered airport, and at a non-radio farmstrip, and most points in between. I also know a few microlight pilots who are terrified of going anywhere that's likely to require any meaningful radio use, but also have come across a number of GA pilots who regard a non-radio short grass strip as a completely unnecessary and stupid risk.
Both are being unnecessarily paranoid. But without training that covers both, how are they supposed to understand that?
G
I learned many years ago at Old Sarum where a membership fee got me all of my landing fees. I often fly and occasionally instruct at Cranfield where the same is still true - £125pa and all my landings are covered. Cranfield is a busy airport with plenty to stretch anybody.
Occasionally I'll take a student to Enstone where they can do circuits all day for £25, which seems reasonably affordable.
I do agree that any pilot should ideally be comfortable at both a busy towered airport, and at a non-radio farmstrip, and most points in between. I also know a few microlight pilots who are terrified of going anywhere that's likely to require any meaningful radio use, but also have come across a number of GA pilots who regard a non-radio short grass strip as a completely unnecessary and stupid risk.
Both are being unnecessarily paranoid. But without training that covers both, how are they supposed to understand that?
G
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117!!?
I understand it's part of training, but surely if you need that many T and G's you're doing something wrong to begin with? I know it's part of circuit training too, but it took you that many attempts to perfect it... or?
Inform me otherwise
EDIT - Oh who cares, free landing fees where do you/did you train!!! Biggin Hill airport is going to be expensive, only got 4 hours in so far!
I understand it's part of training, but surely if you need that many T and G's you're doing something wrong to begin with? I know it's part of circuit training too, but it took you that many attempts to perfect it... or?
Inform me otherwise
EDIT - Oh who cares, free landing fees where do you/did you train!!! Biggin Hill airport is going to be expensive, only got 4 hours in so far!
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Well EGKB, as you are four hours in (so on my reckoning on climbing, turning and descending and/or slow flight if your syllabus is like ours), I'm assuming that you haven't done any circuit work yet - well, not your own anyway!
I am sure that many wiser heads on here will agree with me that learning to fly (unless of course you are a genius )is not a quick or easy task. The minimum is 45hours and yes, we have just had an Air Cadet gain his PPL after 45hrs 30. But I think the majority take longer than that. Some of it seems at the time like a long hard slog..and circuits for me was one of those areas.
I will try to explain as I see it from a student (I am still one ) perspective. Circuits are an area of flying where the pilot is at their busiest, and many of the aircraft handling skills are required. Not only is one handling the aircraft, but also talking to the Tower, carrying out checks and keeping a good lookout! OK, going around the circuit:
The health warning (before someone else points this out
) is that what I have described is a military oval circuit which we fly as a matter of course...what I believe Civilian FTOs teach as a "bad weather circuit". What I have outlined here may not seem a lot, however, all of it, but particularly landing takes a lot of skill and fine judgement. It is something which I certainly took a long time to really hone. Remember, you are flying circuits as a lead into flying your first solo and if your instructor is doing their job properly they will want to make you spot on before you go solo. Some people just take longer than others and there is much to take in.
Also bear in mind that things may not go according to plan. You may fr instance set up a perfect approach, speed, attitude etc just fine, but then the Tower tell you to for whatever reason to go-around...or your approach is too fast, you land and have Pilot Induced oscillation or balloon and you have to put on full power, take off and go around again. You will also continue to fly circuits even when you have gone solo as this is a requirement (and good practice!) You will still have good and bad days
Sure, I was probably doing many things wrong to begin with! Yes, I took a long time to perfect it. But on the other hand, I took to PFLs straight away . I had sometimes long breaks in my training (through no fault of my own), either through lack of instructor, poor weather....many things can get in the way of even getting into the air. Good continuity is key. You need to fly AT LEAST once a week.
Your instructor will be able to tell what you are capable of...all I will say is try not to get frustrated if he/she seems picky. My instructor is self confessed Mr Picky but I like that as I know he is making me do it perfectly and in the end I will be a better pilot for it. But as others have said, learning to fly is not a race, go with the flow, enjoy it, take in everything which your instructor tells you, ask questions, make notes, do whatever makes you learn.
Remember YOU are learning to fly BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, not because some schoolteacher says you have to do it, not because (if you are doing A Levels) you need it for University entrance...you are doing it for YOU!
To your other point, I am learning at RAF Cranwell, bit too far probably for you However, as I think I and probably some others have mentioned on another thread, if you are willing to travel, RAF Halton have a Flying Club and it is worth talking to them. I believe they operate from grass strips rather than long concrete and I think there are a mix of aircraft types there, but they will be able to help you with that.
Sorry this is rather an essay but I mean it in the best possible way to help you
GQ
ps, ....and i'm now 53 hours in...and still training...
I am sure that many wiser heads on here will agree with me that learning to fly (unless of course you are a genius
)is not a quick or easy task. The minimum is 45hours and yes, we have just had an Air Cadet gain his PPL after 45hrs 30. But I think the majority take longer than that. Some of it seems at the time like a long hard slog..and circuits for me was one of those areas. I will try to explain as I see it from a student (I am still one
) perspective. Circuits are an area of flying where the pilot is at their busiest, and many of the aircraft handling skills are required. Not only is one handling the aircraft, but also talking to the Tower, carrying out checks and keeping a good lookout! OK, going around the circuit:- Take Off
- Climbing turn onto downwind
- Level off at cct height onto Downwind
- Fly downwind leg accurately at circuit height, not forgetting downwind call and pre-land cx to include first stage flap
- accurate descending turn onto Finals
- Fly accurate Final approach to include short finals cx, second stage flap, finals call
- Land
The health warning (before someone else points this out
) is that what I have described is a military oval circuit which we fly as a matter of course...what I believe Civilian FTOs teach as a "bad weather circuit". What I have outlined here may not seem a lot, however, all of it, but particularly landing takes a lot of skill and fine judgement. It is something which I certainly took a long time to really hone. Remember, you are flying circuits as a lead into flying your first solo and if your instructor is doing their job properly they will want to make you spot on before you go solo. Some people just take longer than others and there is much to take in.Also bear in mind that things may not go according to plan. You may fr instance set up a perfect approach, speed, attitude etc just fine, but then the Tower tell you to for whatever reason to go-around...or your approach is too fast, you land and have Pilot Induced oscillation or balloon and you have to put on full power, take off and go around again. You will also continue to fly circuits even when you have gone solo as this is a requirement (and good practice!) You will still have good and bad days
Sure, I was probably doing many things wrong to begin with!
Yes, I took a long time to perfect it. But on the other hand, I took to PFLs straight away . I had sometimes long breaks in my training (through no fault of my own), either through lack of instructor, poor weather....many things can get in the way of even getting into the air. Good continuity is key. You need to fly AT LEAST once a week. Your instructor will be able to tell what you are capable of...all I will say is try not to get frustrated if he/she seems picky. My instructor is self confessed Mr Picky but I like that as I know he is making me do it perfectly and in the end I will be a better pilot for it. But as others have said, learning to fly is not a race, go with the flow, enjoy it, take in everything which your instructor tells you, ask questions, make notes, do whatever makes you learn.
Remember YOU are learning to fly BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, not because some schoolteacher says you have to do it, not because (if you are doing A Levels) you need it for University entrance...you are doing it for YOU!
To your other point, I am learning at RAF Cranwell, bit too far probably for you
However, as I think I and probably some others have mentioned on another thread, if you are willing to travel, RAF Halton have a Flying Club and it is worth talking to them. I believe they operate from grass strips rather than long concrete and I think there are a mix of aircraft types there, but they will be able to help you with that.Sorry this is rather an essay but I mean it in the best possible way to help you
GQ
ps, ....and i'm now 53 hours in...and still training...
A foul weather circuit is something else, the military circuit we'd usually call a military, oval, or constant aspect circuit.
And yes, whilst I didn't count them, I'd guess that I flew around a hundred circuits before I went solo as well.
Well explained GQ.
G
And yes, whilst I didn't count them, I'd guess that I flew around a hundred circuits before I went solo as well.
Well explained GQ.
G
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one of the cheapest ways to do it is by doing the NPPL (M) ( 3 axis) and then converting to NPPL (A). it cost me £2500 for my NPPL (M) and i have been quoted to do 5 hours plus my GST and an exam and i will have my NPPL (A)
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A foul weather circuit is something else, the military circuit we'd usually call a military, oval, or constant aspect circuit.......
Well explained GQ.
Well explained GQ.
Thanks on both accounts G! I knew someone would help me out with explaining that one properly
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EGKB,
You can find the entire PPL training syllabus here. From Page 20 onwards, it breaks down all the "Flight Exercises" and what they contain.
In practice, these are composed slightly differently into individual sorties
Following on from GQ, how long will it take you? She is spot on that the main factors you can influence is how frequently you train, and where. Others are of course aptitude, and I would add age [I certainly don't learn as quickly as I did 20 years ago!], but you cant do anything about those...
There are really three distinct ways to go about it
You can find the entire PPL training syllabus here. From Page 20 onwards, it breaks down all the "Flight Exercises" and what they contain.
In practice, these are composed slightly differently into individual sorties
- Exercises 1 (Aeroplane familiarisation), 2 (Pre-flight checks) and 5 (Taxiing) are normally covered incrementally over several sorties
- Exercises can be broken down over several sorties. For example, Exercise 5 (Straight and Level) typically is Ex. 5.1 - Straight and level (1) followed by Ex. 5.2 - Straight and level at various airspeeds and configurations
- Also, exercises sometimes are combined, for example climbing and descending, and later Ex. 12/13 (take-off and landing, aka, circuit)
Following on from GQ, how long will it take you? She is spot on that the main factors you can influence is how frequently you train, and where. Others are of course aptitude, and I would add age [I certainly don't learn as quickly as I did 20 years ago!], but you cant do anything about those...
There are really three distinct ways to go about it
- Full time. Probably lowest hours to solo and flying. This will take 6 weeks or so (although weather can ruin that badly...). This will feel like hard work at times, and also you will not have experienced what it means to come back to flying after a month or two of not going up. But will give you the lowest number of hours, and I personally know people who did this in or close to minimum hours [although your mileage WILL vary, as the Americans say]
- Multiple sorties per weekend, plus days off at critical trainig stages (pre-first-solo consolidation, qualifying cross country, test). Done this way, it should take up to half a year. It can be done in minimum hours, but it is less likely. Bias warning: I did all my licences/ratings (PPL, CPL, IMC rating, IR) that way.
- Fly one lesson each weekend. This will take WELL over a year, and you can pretty much forget achieving anything approaching min hours.