What 4 seater? 172SH vs PA28 warrior
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As usual thread creep has given you a bunch of opinions that you did not ask for and one post that you did not need.
To pick up on what Rod1 had said...............
There ae very few non- complex 160HP aircraft that will lift the payload that you require along with a nice fat fuel reserve, the only one that springs to mind is Robin DR400/160.
The Robin would lift the payload and fuel for the trip you plan to Le Touquet and probably also lift enough fuel for the return trip.
If you can find a DR400/180 so much the better,that will do Oxfordshire to well south of Paris with 4 normal adults or Oxfordshire to northern Spain with 2 adults ( both including life raft & light baggage).
Oh and the last thing the Robin will do the trip out off a runway about 30% shorter and is 10-15 kt faster in the cruise.
To pick up on what Rod1 had said...............
There ae very few non- complex 160HP aircraft that will lift the payload that you require along with a nice fat fuel reserve, the only one that springs to mind is Robin DR400/160.
The Robin would lift the payload and fuel for the trip you plan to Le Touquet and probably also lift enough fuel for the return trip.
If you can find a DR400/180 so much the better,that will do Oxfordshire to well south of Paris with 4 normal adults or Oxfordshire to northern Spain with 2 adults ( both including life raft & light baggage).
Oh and the last thing the Robin will do the trip out off a runway about 30% shorter and is 10-15 kt faster in the cruise.
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Future mother in law
You are going to spend way too much time with your mother in law in years to come. Take every opportunity to avoid unnecessary contact now, as it will only bring forward the day when you eventually get sick of her. It might even make you rethink marrying your girlfriend- have a look at her mum, that's what you've got in 25 years!
Take the same weight in fuel instead. It will give you options, peace of mind and won't be whinging the whole way. It won't throw up on you. Won't cramp style with girlfriend.
By the way I personally have a great preference for the 172 over the warrior:
- 2 big doors
-easier to get into
-roomier
-can stand under wing out of sun and rain while waiting
-better visibility downwards for sightseeing
Take the same weight in fuel instead. It will give you options, peace of mind and won't be whinging the whole way. It won't throw up on you. Won't cramp style with girlfriend.
By the way I personally have a great preference for the 172 over the warrior:
- 2 big doors
-easier to get into
-roomier
-can stand under wing out of sun and rain while waiting
-better visibility downwards for sightseeing
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More PA-28's will carry more
Your best chance of finding an C172/PA28 capable of carrying 4 adults in a sensible and legal way is to look for an older (or old!), 180 HP PA-28.
But the C172 has its advantages, as Veryimmature points out, although I didnot think of "roomier" as one of them. The C172 is also a very forgiving aircraft with the lowest accident rate (together with the Diamond DA-40).
But the C172 has its advantages, as Veryimmature points out, although I didnot think of "roomier" as one of them. The C172 is also a very forgiving aircraft with the lowest accident rate (together with the Diamond DA-40).
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Ryan, Lots of good advice here. Fellow pilots don't want to see you in an AAIB bulletin.
What I'd strongly recommend is that you do 10 hours on your own after you qualify. Then work out a route which takes about 45 mins ( or no more than an hour) that gives some nice views (a bit of coast perhaps). I have one of these 'round the bay' trips permanently embossed into my memory and I use it a lot. Then take out your girlfriend on her own and finally take out her parents separately, preferably in the aircraft you learned in. You are going to be under pressure so you want everything to be as familiar as possible early on and this approach makes for a stress free flight for everyone..
If they like it, then you can plan the longer trip. I'm a very docile pilot, but I've had a couple of people go sickie on me in the air. Thank goodness for my autopilot! An instructor once tipped me off to keep a bag in my kneeboard when taking first timers up.
Oh, and 4 decent sized people with baggage for La France - I'd go for a C182, but you'd need additional training.
What I'd strongly recommend is that you do 10 hours on your own after you qualify. Then work out a route which takes about 45 mins ( or no more than an hour) that gives some nice views (a bit of coast perhaps). I have one of these 'round the bay' trips permanently embossed into my memory and I use it a lot. Then take out your girlfriend on her own and finally take out her parents separately, preferably in the aircraft you learned in. You are going to be under pressure so you want everything to be as familiar as possible early on and this approach makes for a stress free flight for everyone..
If they like it, then you can plan the longer trip. I'm a very docile pilot, but I've had a couple of people go sickie on me in the air. Thank goodness for my autopilot! An instructor once tipped me off to keep a bag in my kneeboard when taking first timers up.
Oh, and 4 decent sized people with baggage for La France - I'd go for a C182, but you'd need additional training.
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I'm a very docile pilot, but I've had a couple of people go sickie on me in the air. Thank goodness for my autopilot! An instructor once tipped me off to keep a bag in my kneeboard when taking first timers up.
He wasn't sick, but he told me after landing that he'd spent the whole flight worrying about being sick.
Because I hadn't told him where to find the sick bag, so he didn't even know that there was one.
This is now part of my passenger briefing!
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Why not surprise your girlfriend with a flying lesson voucher for her birthday?
Although it might not take place on the day because of weather, plan a birthday dinner at a really splendid country hotel, with amazing bedrooms....swimming pool, spa, etc. Probably cost less than your contemplated cross channel flight with potential inlaws.
Although it might not take place on the day because of weather, plan a birthday dinner at a really splendid country hotel, with amazing bedrooms....swimming pool, spa, etc. Probably cost less than your contemplated cross channel flight with potential inlaws.
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PA28-151's MZFW could carry 30 or 40kg more than the 172
from distant memory, but the 172 had longer legs fuel wise
for a similar payload. Admittedly I'm a bit out of practice by
30 years.
Short trips with fat slobs + full baggage - PA28, longer trips
with same slobs but reduced baggage - 172. Slightly off the
topic but best of the lot was the C206 - full tanks, full bums
and 6 slabs in the back equalled MTOW. The CofG check was
simply to push the tail down...if it came up again you were in
the envelope.
from distant memory, but the 172 had longer legs fuel wise
for a similar payload. Admittedly I'm a bit out of practice by
30 years.
Short trips with fat slobs + full baggage - PA28, longer trips
with same slobs but reduced baggage - 172. Slightly off the
topic but best of the lot was the C206 - full tanks, full bums
and 6 slabs in the back equalled MTOW. The CofG check was
simply to push the tail down...if it came up again you were in
the envelope.
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I can't believe the pessimism here. He is not flying the Atlantic solo. He is planning a trip to Le Touquet.
OK, in amongst the doom and gloom is some good advice. Really do not go over water the first time in hazy conditions. You will scare yourself stupid, you will embarrass yourself in front of your girlfriend and you might kill yourself. Talk to someone who has just landed - it's almost impossible to judge from the ground.
Do obey the mass and balance to the pound. Not worth going outside despite the fact that most aircraft will happily fly heavy, especially when you can happily fly to Le Touquet from a few UK airfields in most PA28-161s with two male, two female modest-weight adults and land with more than an hour's fuel in the tanks. That gives reserves to divert if the runway is blocked and still land with 45 minutes gas - which puts you pretty much in IFR requirements for commercial flights!
Do plan that diversion even in great weather. The one in front has a gear collapse, blocks Le Touquet and suddenly you are really stressed, and mistakes happen.
I prefer the PA28 to the C172 - I just don't like the Cessna's dull handling, and don't see the point unless you are landing on a rough strip or need the downward visibility. PA28s always make you look better anyway, as all passengers judge you on the landing and it's easier to land well than the Cessna. Even better, as mentioned before, is a Robin DR400-180. The one I flew would carry full fuel and four 14-stone people, and hit 130 kts on a good day. However you will not easily find one to hire, and you will need a good check out. You might also need a map to find all the switches on the panel, due to completely random arrangement, and the cabin is tight for four people.
Think beforehand about emergencies. As soon as anything is wrong turn towards the nearest land and call MAYDAY. You can always cancel that later. Make sure everyone has lifejackets right in hand (try to get wearable ones) and knows how to use them, and not to inflate before leaving the aircraft. Dogsbody is pessimistic. People die landing wet, but most survive at least the initial touchdown and you will have plenty of ferries to help in the rescue. Ditch nearby but not in front, being run over by P&O is not funny.
Above all talk to your instructor before the flight. He will give you sound advice, more thorough than strangers on PPRuNe, and he will know whether you are up to this (some will be before even passing the PPL, some need more experience and a few should never cross a duck pond without an instructor). The trip is not hard, it is just different and a little more complicated.
Finally I repeat: don't do it unless the weather is great. Weather will kill you, not gross weight, navigation or technical problems.
Oh, and have fun!
OK, in amongst the doom and gloom is some good advice. Really do not go over water the first time in hazy conditions. You will scare yourself stupid, you will embarrass yourself in front of your girlfriend and you might kill yourself. Talk to someone who has just landed - it's almost impossible to judge from the ground.
Do obey the mass and balance to the pound. Not worth going outside despite the fact that most aircraft will happily fly heavy, especially when you can happily fly to Le Touquet from a few UK airfields in most PA28-161s with two male, two female modest-weight adults and land with more than an hour's fuel in the tanks. That gives reserves to divert if the runway is blocked and still land with 45 minutes gas - which puts you pretty much in IFR requirements for commercial flights!
Do plan that diversion even in great weather. The one in front has a gear collapse, blocks Le Touquet and suddenly you are really stressed, and mistakes happen.
I prefer the PA28 to the C172 - I just don't like the Cessna's dull handling, and don't see the point unless you are landing on a rough strip or need the downward visibility. PA28s always make you look better anyway, as all passengers judge you on the landing and it's easier to land well than the Cessna. Even better, as mentioned before, is a Robin DR400-180. The one I flew would carry full fuel and four 14-stone people, and hit 130 kts on a good day. However you will not easily find one to hire, and you will need a good check out. You might also need a map to find all the switches on the panel, due to completely random arrangement, and the cabin is tight for four people.
Think beforehand about emergencies. As soon as anything is wrong turn towards the nearest land and call MAYDAY. You can always cancel that later. Make sure everyone has lifejackets right in hand (try to get wearable ones) and knows how to use them, and not to inflate before leaving the aircraft. Dogsbody is pessimistic. People die landing wet, but most survive at least the initial touchdown and you will have plenty of ferries to help in the rescue. Ditch nearby but not in front, being run over by P&O is not funny.
Above all talk to your instructor before the flight. He will give you sound advice, more thorough than strangers on PPRuNe, and he will know whether you are up to this (some will be before even passing the PPL, some need more experience and a few should never cross a duck pond without an instructor). The trip is not hard, it is just different and a little more complicated.
Finally I repeat: don't do it unless the weather is great. Weather will kill you, not gross weight, navigation or technical problems.
Oh, and have fun!
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Well, Thanks for all the tips and advice!! it seems everyone is a bit 50/50 with the weight 'n' balance factor as a lot of you highly discourage the idea of 4-up in a 172 however a few on here and a Lot of pilots / instructors that i know say its perfectly fine so long as the aircraft is within limits! I also think some people have missed the point too with regard to my intentions of the le Touquet trip! The idea was that I take my girlfriend and her parents to france for her birthday, I understand quite well that the weather has the last say over whether we can fly or not, but then again so does health, work, etc etc.. Basically what i am getting at is that her 'birthday trip' is whenever all them factors allow for it 
not specifically on that exact day!! I would never compromise safety to hit a deadline in any way.
Fuel wise, i will be flying from rochester or headcorn, which is not far from the SE coast, its going to take roughly 45min to an hour to fly each way (subject to wind obviously) and thats why i suggested re-fuelling in france.
But anyway, I think i will leave the Le-Touquet trip until i have a few hours experience behind me then; i must admit, i flew a nav exercise on Monday, Rochester > Stapleford > Earls colne > Clacton VOR then straight line down the coast back to Rochester, and i did notice how hazy it was when looking out across the channel! i did struggle to find a horizon with the sun shining down on the water but it did look quite amazing tho i have to say
I have to ask tho (little bit off topic), giving how cautious a lot of people are on here, what is there views on schools that offer intensive integrated ATPL training?! surely the thought of 4 people in a Cessna flying a over 25 minutes of water with a PPL pilot of say 60 hours is a lot better than a 250 hour fresh out of training atpl cadet possibly at the controls of a A340 mid Atlantic with 200 people on board whilst the captain is having his nap?? hmmm?
not specifically on that exact day!! I would never compromise safety to hit a deadline in any way. Fuel wise, i will be flying from rochester or headcorn, which is not far from the SE coast, its going to take roughly 45min to an hour to fly each way (subject to wind obviously) and thats why i suggested re-fuelling in france.
But anyway, I think i will leave the Le-Touquet trip until i have a few hours experience behind me then; i must admit, i flew a nav exercise on Monday, Rochester > Stapleford > Earls colne > Clacton VOR then straight line down the coast back to Rochester, and i did notice how hazy it was when looking out across the channel! i did struggle to find a horizon with the sun shining down on the water but it did look quite amazing tho i have to say
I have to ask tho (little bit off topic), giving how cautious a lot of people are on here, what is there views on schools that offer intensive integrated ATPL training?! surely the thought of 4 people in a Cessna flying a over 25 minutes of water with a PPL pilot of say 60 hours is a lot better than a 250 hour fresh out of training atpl cadet possibly at the controls of a A340 mid Atlantic with 200 people on board whilst the captain is having his nap?? hmmm?
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Okay, my 0.02E worth.
On W&B: Have you ever (I mean ever) flown with an aircraft even near MTOW? During my PPL training I once had a student in the back seat to observe, which still left us maybe 60 kg below MTOW. That was it. All other flights were two-up, at least 100 kg below MTOW. At MTOW, or even above, aircraft really do fly differently, especially if you apply the same Vref and other speeds, and the flare pitch-up indifferently.
Nobody here will actively encourage you to depart above MTOW (although some of us may have done so, and lived to tell the tale) but even flying right at MTOW is something that you will want to experience first, when the other aspects of the flight are well within your personal limits and experience.
Next, passengers. Have you ever flown with passengers who have no experience in light aircraft? You will find they take up a lot of your mental capacity, because they start to babble at inopportune times, will distract you from your work of flying the aircraft, might get airsick, do stupid things, panic and so forth. Flying passengers in comfort is something you need to learn about, and you will want to build up that experience slowly. Take one passenger up initially. If that works, take two.
(Oh, and by the way, have you ever sat in the back of a C172 or PA28 with another person next to you, for half an hour or so? They are a lot smaller than your average family car, particularly in the back.)
Next, international flight. All of a sudden you have a lot more on your mind. GAR forms, customs, flight plans, different airspace rules, different ways of getting and paying for fuel, different ATC services, you name it.
Next, cross channel flying. Dealing with haze which reduces perfect VFR to IMC conditions anyway. And you have the ditching risk to worry about. Lifejackets, raft, PLB, ...
All this is stuff that can be experienced and learned, no question about that. The question is: Is just a few hours after your PPL exam a good time to learn and experience it all at once? Or would it be better to build up to this experience and knowledge slowly?
I think you'll find it doesn't work that way. On flights where the captain needs a nap, you'll get a "heavy" crew, where at least one of the P2s is a "relief captain": Allowed to act as captain during the cruise. That designation only comes after a significant hours of experience on the line.
On W&B: Have you ever (I mean ever) flown with an aircraft even near MTOW? During my PPL training I once had a student in the back seat to observe, which still left us maybe 60 kg below MTOW. That was it. All other flights were two-up, at least 100 kg below MTOW. At MTOW, or even above, aircraft really do fly differently, especially if you apply the same Vref and other speeds, and the flare pitch-up indifferently.
Nobody here will actively encourage you to depart above MTOW (although some of us may have done so, and lived to tell the tale) but even flying right at MTOW is something that you will want to experience first, when the other aspects of the flight are well within your personal limits and experience.
Next, passengers. Have you ever flown with passengers who have no experience in light aircraft? You will find they take up a lot of your mental capacity, because they start to babble at inopportune times, will distract you from your work of flying the aircraft, might get airsick, do stupid things, panic and so forth. Flying passengers in comfort is something you need to learn about, and you will want to build up that experience slowly. Take one passenger up initially. If that works, take two.
(Oh, and by the way, have you ever sat in the back of a C172 or PA28 with another person next to you, for half an hour or so? They are a lot smaller than your average family car, particularly in the back.)
Next, international flight. All of a sudden you have a lot more on your mind. GAR forms, customs, flight plans, different airspace rules, different ways of getting and paying for fuel, different ATC services, you name it.
Next, cross channel flying. Dealing with haze which reduces perfect VFR to IMC conditions anyway. And you have the ditching risk to worry about. Lifejackets, raft, PLB, ...
All this is stuff that can be experienced and learned, no question about that. The question is: Is just a few hours after your PPL exam a good time to learn and experience it all at once? Or would it be better to build up to this experience and knowledge slowly?
a 250 hour fresh out of training atpl cadet possibly at the controls of a A340 mid Atlantic with 200 people on board whilst the captain is having his nap??
The guy in the A-340 won't be on his own (unless the captain has gone to the loo for a couple of mins) - only where there is a third flight crew member (sometimes AFAIK cruise qualified only) because the flight is about 10 hours will the captain go for a kip. The rules are set out in CAP371.
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Backpacker sums it up very well..
For a new or say 10 hours+ PPL, there's so much more to learn and take in about flying Cross Channel.
I found the best way to do it was to get in a plane with 2 more experienced pilots and let myself be guided by them.
The benefit of doing it with more experienced other pilots is we didn't have to pick the shortest channel crossing point, we coasted out from Hastings right over towards Dieppe and went half way down France.
A great learning experience and I got 3 hours P1 and the chance to fly in a very nice PA28 Archer III.
I found also, that when I did take my girlfriend up as soon as I'd passed, that a 20 minute trip locally for some lunch was more than enough to make for a good day out, but short enough so that if she didnt like it we'd have been quickly back to base.
For a new or say 10 hours+ PPL, there's so much more to learn and take in about flying Cross Channel.
I found the best way to do it was to get in a plane with 2 more experienced pilots and let myself be guided by them.
The benefit of doing it with more experienced other pilots is we didn't have to pick the shortest channel crossing point, we coasted out from Hastings right over towards Dieppe and went half way down France.
A great learning experience and I got 3 hours P1 and the chance to fly in a very nice PA28 Archer III.
I found also, that when I did take my girlfriend up as soon as I'd passed, that a 20 minute trip locally for some lunch was more than enough to make for a good day out, but short enough so that if she didnt like it we'd have been quickly back to base.
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Backpacker
Almost every male here who learnt in a Cessna 150/152 with a male instructor has flown close to max all-up as a zero-hour student. It isn't that different unless you are operating from a really short strip. I think you'll find that Headcorn and Rochester both have public-transport safety factor for operating full-weight in either aircraft, so no real problems. I was in Le Touquet today public-transport in something rather larger, there is stacks of runway! If he feels troubled by performance Lydd and Manston are not far off.
Passenger handling is a point worth considering. You are quite right that three on the first go is not a good idea, I am not sure that was the plan. An instructor could, again, give good advice - they are very used to dealing with some difficult first-time pax on trial lessons.
As for international flights - again the instructor will help in the UK end, but in Le Touquet they are well-set for inexperienced British visitors. Just make sure to file both flight plans before leaving. Easy enough to delay the return, and less to stress about.
Oh, and the rules changed a few years back so one pilot may nap briefly in the cruise even on a two-pilot crew. I knew a Captain who complained if he had a tired FO, as he could not get enough sleep himself.
Almost every male here who learnt in a Cessna 150/152 with a male instructor has flown close to max all-up as a zero-hour student. It isn't that different unless you are operating from a really short strip. I think you'll find that Headcorn and Rochester both have public-transport safety factor for operating full-weight in either aircraft, so no real problems. I was in Le Touquet today public-transport in something rather larger, there is stacks of runway! If he feels troubled by performance Lydd and Manston are not far off.
Passenger handling is a point worth considering. You are quite right that three on the first go is not a good idea, I am not sure that was the plan. An instructor could, again, give good advice - they are very used to dealing with some difficult first-time pax on trial lessons.
As for international flights - again the instructor will help in the UK end, but in Le Touquet they are well-set for inexperienced British visitors. Just make sure to file both flight plans before leaving. Easy enough to delay the return, and less to stress about.
Oh, and the rules changed a few years back so one pilot may nap briefly in the cruise even on a two-pilot crew. I knew a Captain who complained if he had a tired FO, as he could not get enough sleep himself.
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I have about 200 hours in various PA28s.
To say they don't handle differently 2 up as opposed to 4 up is not quite right, IMHO.
They are inherently docile aircraft, but the handling when slow, or rather the way you have to handle them when slow is a little different. The effect on balance is also quite important to know and understand.
For example, the 'pull' on the yoke, in the flare will feel different at light and max weights.
Nothing to be scared of, but something to be aware of and I second Backpacker's advice to try it with an instructor first.
Also, it is worth having some instruction on the earlier 'Hershey bar' winged types and the later semi-tapered designs, as they do land slightly differently.
The main thing in handling the PA28 near the ground is to develop the confidence to fly at the book approach speeds, which can be around 65kias at max, the taper wing types tend to float in ground effect with even a few extra knots - then again, ask an instructor about it, as I'm only a PPL. Landing into a 20 knot headwind at 63 knots (the actual speed for the PA28-181 I flew a lot) felt waaaaaay to slow :-)
But, all things considered, the PA28 is a very nice introduction to touring.
For the sake of balance, I liked the C172, as well, very good field performance, but I don't have enough hours on type to feel comfortable passing further comment.
To say they don't handle differently 2 up as opposed to 4 up is not quite right, IMHO.
They are inherently docile aircraft, but the handling when slow, or rather the way you have to handle them when slow is a little different. The effect on balance is also quite important to know and understand.
For example, the 'pull' on the yoke, in the flare will feel different at light and max weights.
Nothing to be scared of, but something to be aware of and I second Backpacker's advice to try it with an instructor first.
Also, it is worth having some instruction on the earlier 'Hershey bar' winged types and the later semi-tapered designs, as they do land slightly differently.
The main thing in handling the PA28 near the ground is to develop the confidence to fly at the book approach speeds, which can be around 65kias at max, the taper wing types tend to float in ground effect with even a few extra knots - then again, ask an instructor about it, as I'm only a PPL. Landing into a 20 knot headwind at 63 knots (the actual speed for the PA28-181 I flew a lot) felt waaaaaay to slow :-)
But, all things considered, the PA28 is a very nice introduction to touring.
For the sake of balance, I liked the C172, as well, very good field performance, but I don't have enough hours on type to feel comfortable passing further comment.
Get a few hours under your belt post-PPL, but then go for it. Maybe sit right seat with a more experienced pilot who's going cross-channel, to see what's involved, first. But, you do not need to be some kind of sky-god to fly across the channel; I only had 150 hours total time when I hopped in a C172 and flew it from Florida to California and back! Looking back, I'm quite pleasantly surprised that they actually let me rent their airplane to do that..!
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Looking back through my logbook, I had about 35 hours PIC time after PPL issue when I made my first x-channel trip. But I only took one passenger. And I had cancelled that trip on an earlier date due to the weather not being suitable.
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I've just read Ryan's posts here and nothing he says suggests he is going to go and kill himself.
He knows about W&B which is more than one could say about the majority of fully loaded spamcans making their way across the Channel on the average nice day.
Whether a particular plane will be within W&B with four people depends massively (pun intended) on the four people. If you weight say 80kg and you carry three Size 8 females (i.e. about the right size
) then you have a much better chance of fitting some juice in the tanks than if you pick up three teenage girls off the some council estate in N Wales
He is only flying from Kent (Headcorn or some such, I presume) to Le Touquet. He is not flying there from Trondheim.... so the return trip is well within any spamcan's capability.
Obviously he needs to be sure of his navigation (carry a GPS) and of the weather (look at the forecasts, but actually you can almost see LTQ from almost anywhere in Kent once you get airborne. Avoid very hazy days unless you are instrument capable, because (especially over the sea) you can just lose the horizon. But if you go with non-flying passengers then you want to pick good weather days anyway.
UK south coast to LTQ is a really nice really easy trip which non-flying passengers really appreciate because the place is very nice to visit. It's very good value and ticks all the boxes.
He knows about W&B which is more than one could say about the majority of fully loaded spamcans making their way across the Channel on the average nice day.
Whether a particular plane will be within W&B with four people depends massively (pun intended) on the four people. If you weight say 80kg and you carry three Size 8 females (i.e. about the right size
) then you have a much better chance of fitting some juice in the tanks than if you pick up three teenage girls off the some council estate in N Wales He is only flying from Kent (Headcorn or some such, I presume) to Le Touquet. He is not flying there from Trondheim.... so the return trip is well within any spamcan's capability.
Obviously he needs to be sure of his navigation (carry a GPS) and of the weather (look at the forecasts, but actually you can almost see LTQ from almost anywhere in Kent once you get airborne. Avoid very hazy days unless you are instrument capable, because (especially over the sea) you can just lose the horizon. But if you go with non-flying passengers then you want to pick good weather days anyway.
UK south coast to LTQ is a really nice really easy trip which non-flying passengers really appreciate because the place is very nice to visit. It's very good value and ticks all the boxes.