Proviation customer care problems

[PaulKerry]

Thanks, Martin.

It's rather remarkable that Nick can spring into action within moments of a public review being posted yet a customer can bang their head against a brick wall for months without any response.

Three emails? Others have said much the same. Did he ask you to remove your review? Did he offer a bribe?
Did he bleat about being a small business under too much pressure and being hit hard by negative reviews?

I'm sure that you'd much rather have emails full of pathetic excuses than the products you ordered or a refund (!). Right??

Paul..

[Blues&twos]

Just deleted my last copy, realised it had already been posted by another TP monitor!

I see someone else has had their review flagged, coincidentally followed up a few minutes after that by someone claiming they've "literally never had service this good".

I remain entirely unconvinced. Some of these positive...ahem....reviews....just read like adverts, with some most peculiar expressions.

[PaulKerry]

How interesting.
After a run of negative reviews a glowing review has now appeared just minutes before responses from Bloviation to other reviews including an ALL-CAPS update to the reply to Mrs. Hopgood's complaint.


Paul..

[Blues&twos]

Latest TP review by Mats Lintonsson which as usual was flagged away

Lost £501.90 to this company*

Ordered a Lightspeed Sierra headset in Sept 2013 for £556.90. No headset has been delivered, and I have so far only been refunded £55.00, even though I cancelled my order many months ago. Still missing £501.90.

I have been in contact with the owner and the support person a numerous number of times over e-mail and online chat (even though their responses are extremely slow). The owner successfully refunded me £55.00 back to my credit card, but when the remaining part was to be refunded, I got a message back from the owner saying that the operation failed and that I (on my own) have to go (to my bank) and claim a chargeback for the merchandise not received.

In my eyes, this is theft.

And this is the rather unpleasant public reply to Mrs Hopgood, who was sent the wrong sized goods to start with. Proviation presumably employ forensic investigators now to prove when damage (if there actually was any at all) was caused.....looks like they're getting a bit rattled.

DESPITE THE DAMAGE SUSTAINED TO THE HELMET- WHICH WAS CERTAINLY NOT DOE IN SHIPPING, THIS HAS BEEN REFUNDED TO YOU.

[Proviation]

Our posting on here should not be taken as any kind of recognition of this forum, or thread, as an important media to share news to make announcements.

Previously, Proviation had written explanations in response to specific issues individuals had raised, and discussed the business in more detail.

It is widely advised that businesses do this, in order to bring a balance to an otherwise one-sided argument. However, on this forum, this seems to have been a mistake. Never before have we seen such small-minded vindictiveness; the retorts given to our previous posts offensive, and highly critical without a sound basis in fact.

There is an individual peddling ideas on this thread, and he is not in any position to do so. There are others (one, in particular) who The Company knew to have a malicious intent, given that he represents the interests of a competitor. Unfortunately the highly visible nature of this thread, thanks to the constant feeding-of-the-flames by such people meant that The Company invested time and money in approaching Internet Brands, and carrying out additional background research into the long-running authors of these remarks. The negative aspect is being drawn in to having to combat these comments when, naturally, employees would rather be managing our company.

Secondly the Company has established many, many facts about one other individual in particular. In some cases- as experienced in our store, there are no ‘real’ people behind some of the stories; just as the Company has experienced such ‘fake’ customers ordering products in our store. Luckily we grew wise to this in time.

Having paid little attention to the specific remarks made here (the good, business advice heeded by some very successful heads of retailers was to ignore it and focus on the business), recently the Company has had to study the remarks in order to present a case to a defamation law firm.

We are staggered that one person in particular can wage war against a company for 12 months. One should not flatter him to say he has built any kind of loyal following here and we respect those people who have read this thread, and have not been drawn in to posting responses. For those who have genuinely had a problem with Proviation, clearly we as individuals understand the human mindset and the need to appeal to a community for help, or advice, or simply to vent frustration.

On the whole, one can see a person who considers himself some form of warrior or heading a ‘cause’. Anyone who shares his view is deeply ‘misled’ rather than misguided. We will show more respect to him than he has shown to the company owner withholding his name from this statement. This person is not qualified in any way to perpetuate negative comments about Proviation Ltd. Here is not the place in which we will not go into any detail about this order, since it will result in a defence which will dilute the real issues here, and the purpose of this post.

However, all of the goods ordered were delivered. In cases where he found the manufacturer’s description of that product to be slightly inaccurate – a complaint never before received in previous years selling this item- the item was collected by Proviation and returned. A back-and-forth over a 1-2 week period, with Proviation sending couriers to exchange unwanted items only resulted in his deeply critical feedback on Trustpilot, and a personal attack, accusing the owner of supplying misleading information, and later of bribery. The true intent was, as anyone would do; seek to mitigate the effects of the feedback by asking for the opportunity to make things right. It was clear at the time that this individual felt very deeply about his views on the company, and his ‘cause’ began as he tried to make contact with another individual. This second individual incidentally posted a highly negative review despite our being unable, ever, to verify him as a real person; and it was noted he was not registered at either of the two addresses given. Nor was even his name consistent.

After returns were made the order took around 2-3 weeks to complete. There was an initial week’s delay, which certainly was due to drop-shipping, which he feels very strongly about. We can assure the public that every company employs an element of drop-shipping- either by formal arrangement, or by informal, one-off, ‘help’ at times. Remarks have been made about companies which don’t do this; please don’t be fooled.

Proviation Ltd actually started with no drop-shipping whatsoever. As the company dovetailed into new brands, a drop-shipping facility was in fact offered by many suppliers but largely was not taken up. In the case of the flight simulation peripherals brand purchased by the individual in question; these products were drop shipped as they were not core business and took up valuable shelf space- being large, bulky, and commercially- low margin goods.

In respect of the order; with regret it shipped late, however it was purchased as a package. While seemingly the Company is accused of misrepresentation, it should be noted that our Terms and Conditions have always been firmly rooted in Law and make accommodation for an item being unexpectedly unavailable. In light of having no real-time stock updates from our supplier, one or two items of said package were outstanding when Proviation ordered the products. We regret occasions where this happened, but they were always remote. In any case, the order was fulfilled well within the lawfully obligated 30 days. Furthermore the Company incurred substantial additional expense well in excess of any profit made on the order, and substantial time costs of dealing with this customer.

This individual singled out his issue as some symptom of doing business with Proviation. He felt qualified to do this on the basis that he is also a business owner, and a highly successful one with an extremely busy schedule. On the numerous occasions the owner called to discuss the order, he was told that it was inconvenient, as he was very busy; his consulting work meaning he was on the telephone to clients in the far East, and other countries internationally. He purported to be an expert in business strategy and, since he was so busy, was confident enough in his appraisal of Proviation to offer one of his ‘clients’ contact details via Skype; she would be invaluable to talk to about our ‘issues’.

This client he mentioned did not exist. As discussed earlier, we have copious amounts of information on this individual and at no time did we see he has any business experience whatsoever. His circumstances mean he is unable or unwilling to work. His very statements about his alleged business would be grounds to raise the matter with the relevant Government department of work and pensions. A mere scan of this forum, and the round-the-clock monitoring of our Trustpilot review profile, and his posts and activity on other internet sites, would suggest without any doubt that this person has spare time aplenty, and did at the time of writing his initial review, and the subsequent protracted correspondence. We also note that there is some history of conflict with other retailers and or manufacturers.

Readers of the forum should note the above; the facts of his Proviation order, his self-proclaimed yet false position in the business world, and, on a minor note, a distinct lack of any aviation background whatsoever on which to make claims about an aviation supply company; and in fact it could be proven that he harbours anti-aviation sentiments, given contributions he has made on other social media.

We’re unable at this time to provide a strong case for any kind of link with a competitor, and would put it down to bad fortune that our paths crossed.

However the power of the internet to distort facts is perhaps its most prolific trait. Due to the high-ranking nature of this discussion forum, our customers are naturally drawn to it, and in raising a defamation claim we have had to swallow the reality that the forum had in some way lost Proviation new business.

However, what was more apparent and critically important to the company, is that those with outstanding orders with the company were more likely to cancel based on what they read here. Customers who ordered goods which came into short-supply were given emails which have been repeated on this thread, thus also creating an air of suspicion and a ‘me-too’ complex.

The thread urges individuals to make formal complaints to Trading Standards. As a company we have actively ensured that our ‘due diligence’ is in place and followed. And in line with SafeBuy and Trusted Shops regulations, that orders were completed in line with their parameters.
This recommendation circumvents the internal complaints procedure we have in place; although some customers are sensible enough to raise their complaint in-house, where it would be dealt with. This in itself was recommended by Trading Standards, with whom we have been working closely as an organization to ensure our full and on-going compliance with the Law.

Due to the endeavours of this thread, our official complaints peaked in the last 6 months. In the first 4-5 years in business, Proviation had no official complaints whatsoever. And, the early posts which began this thread were all resolved, and referred to hand-made items, not offered by other companies. Our status as a new operation likely spurred curiosity and worry among buyers. Back then, we also did not have the resources to take all telephone calls. This changed when we substantially grew our staffing level in 2011.

Despite the peak in complaints in the last 6 months; all of these have been handled to our knowledge. Of these complaints, many were not substantiated by our operating outside of the Law. In most instances the company has not acted outside of its obligations; i.e fulfillment within 30 days; refund within 30 days; or offer of a refund or continuation of the order, after 30 days. In cases where a refund was not received, this has fallen due to ongoing issues with our past merchant acquiring bank, and the difficulties we faced with physically being able to process the refund successfully via our terminal. In all cases, we have hand-held customers down the path to retrieving their funds.

Despite this peak, we have basis in solid fact to state that our complaints rate was 1.4%. The company processed almost 4000 orders in a six-month period to date. 97.6% of orders did not attract a complaint. The Company has already produced this information to a government department voluntarily.

It should be noted that our departure from Trusted Shops was not a result of disputes, and we praise Trusted Shops for a very diligent approach to e-commerce. We always tried to ensure that any invitations to Buyer Protection ( a service we paid to offer- protecting the consumer up to a value of £2000) were fully dealt with and answered. The reason for the departure is a commercial one, taken on the basis that the costs of the service had not been in line with what was expected as a service fee against the previous InternetShoppingIsSafe accreditation body.

Regrettably we did not have the resources in place to track shipment times, but simply note that the majority of orders shipped on-time and in full. As we sold more one-off and hard-to find items in order to diversify from our competition and bring extra value to the under-equipped UK market, our products were sometimes subject to importation, and in may cases arrived late, and beyond what we quoted online. However, at all times it was communicated to the buyer.

The Company notes that out of thousands of customers served, the ‘me-too’ cases on this thread are negligible.

As has been discussed in great detail, we ran a Trustpilot review page, and our average score over 6 months was 7.2; a big drop from previous years More on this later. So, not as high as we would like; however the likelihood of a customer taking the time to leave a review is well documented ; and the split between those more likely to leave a negative comment rather than a positive is a known statistic also.

Most intelligent people will note that a 7.2 average score in that period is entirely a ‘believable’ score and that of a Company which has never manipulated Trustpilot. In fact we have found Trustpilot to be very credible, and extremely pro-customer and in fact, anti-business, to an extent.

Our individual on this forum has copied-and pasted negative reviews against Trustpilot’s terms of service. Following a letter to Trustpilot; they were already aware of this and have expressed in writing on no less 5 occasions that they are pursuing the unauthorized copying of reviews; presumably with the forum owners.

It is interesting to note that, in spite of the comments which suggest we should ‘learn a lesson’ and improve, he is actively blocking current five star reviews which ordinarily would suggest that we are offering good service.

In many cases the negative reviews have been turned into good ones- not through ‘bribes’ as he would have you believe, but by being honest and forthright, and turning around a bad situation. We appeal to the good nature of most people, and ask them to give us a chance; merely to satisfy them, and prove we ‘want’ to give the best service possible. Due to the one-sided argument on this forum, you will not find any evidence that these bad-reviews-pasted have been reversed. This is despite the proclamation of this individual in numerous posts that he wishes to see Proviation improve. It is quite clear that the intent is not to be a warrior for whatever cause he seems to believe, but instead to ensure that negativity is perpetuated and retained on this forum for perpetuity. In all cases where we have had a major problem with a customer, that customer has more-often-than not expressed their dissatisfaction, but with the caveat that they hope we improve next time, and wish us luck in the business. This is truly healthy criticism, unlike the bitter views harboured here.

He has implied that we have written false reviews, and has for the last 12 months consistently blocked positive reviews of legitimate customers. He will be delighted to learn that the Owner has had to spend valuable time emailing these customers, apologizing for the inconvenience of their review being taken offline, and asking them to spend more of their valuable time in submitting evidence to Trustpilot.
In the early days of this happening, we did not know how to respond, so frequently we lost tens of positive reviews. This is what had originally caused our score to drop noticeably from over 9 points almost overnight. However more recently, Trustpilot have given guidance and by encouraging customers to forward their order confirmations and respond to Trustpilot’s emails, our reviews have been re-instated on most occasions.

That someone who purports to want to see a company improve, we cannot understand why he would continually block positive reviews unless to ensure the company is seen in the worst light.

This has come to a climax in the last 7 days where every positive review left has been blocked almost immediately.

As a company we are encouraged not to block negative reviews. In many cases we don’t; but in some examples where we find a situation unacceptable, we have, in order to communicate with the buyer. But mostly, to prevent scare-mongering on this thread, the copying of the review, and in order to prevent any undue panic among customers if the subject of the review was based on an unavoidable outside problem.

Trustpilot has NEVER removed a bad review from our profile and in most cases the suspension is lifted within 48-72 hours. Trustpilot is very much on the side of the consumer.

However we do note profiles which carry a very high rating with a distinct lack of any problems; even couriers mishandling items; items being lost in the post, or damaged or a late or incorrect delivery. We also note by the volume of orders taken by these firms, that the ratio of positive feedback is unusually high.

We have always felt that a score of 7.2 is entirely legitimate and a solid basis for improvement as far as the Trustpilot review page goes. On the basis of the extreme negativity here, and the ‘hospital waiting room’ style of our Trustpilot page, we express that our service must be exceptionally good to prevent further additions to this page.

Attempts to contact Safebuy to complain, by the individual in question, have not been entirely heeded by Safebuy in correspondence with Proviation, since the order was completed. As an organization we have never been struck-off or received any formal warning from SafeBuy. Our complaints rate has numbered less than a dozen in 2-3 years, which given the presence of this forum, is worthy of note. In all cases, the complaints have been resolved satisfactorily. Any thing presently outstanding is being resolved.

As a Company director, and long-standing aviation nut, the Owner has always sought to conduct business affairs with the utmost professionalism. Our industry is cut-throat in terms of competition; but unlike others in the industry, the Owner has conducted business affairs in a cooperative manner at all times and with the backing of the majority of other players in the industry. The Company has always aimed to create and share value among other participants in the market and enjoys close relationships with other companies and connections which the Owner is extremely proud to call friends.

So it is with extreme regret that we announce now that our position in the market is now untenable and we have ceased trading.

Last week our website was taken offline and our web hosts cannot explain why. At the same time most of our positive reviews were blocked. For days before this our site crashed continually and checkout pages froze. Owing to the outage, and the constant advice given on this thread to encourage customers to ‘charge-back’ their cards, we had received a sudden charge of chargebacks in a short period. In 2/8 cases, the goods were shipped. In one case, the customer hadn’t received a refund yet but this was still within limits. In the remainder of cases, all items were not shipped, but there had been good correspondence with the customer on the causes for the delay, and we assumed they panicked when the site was offline.

We received notification from the merchant bank that the sudden chargebacks had prompted a risk assessment of the company. Based on our short length of time trading with them, of only three months, set against the formally acknowledged presence of a discussed thread which tells people to use chargeback, they felt that there would be a risk for them to continue the relationship. This therefore renders the company unable to trade.

So again, we mention the huge power of the internet, and the effect of power in the hands of individuals who should not hold it. The implications of the closure will affect many companies, and in turn individuals, some of whom depend on our trade. Despite raising trade in our industry and breaking through the downturn to bring life back into our sector, we will now have to leave our suppliers and customers.

We’re sure the contributors here will expect they have achieved their goal.

We hope the round-the-clock monitoring and discussion, and filling dead airtime when there was nothing really to say was a very productive, valuable use of your life. We only get one.

This is not completely the case; as a Company we have to take responsibility. But we assess the facts and we see a good company for the last six years. The proof is undeniable and cannot be refuted- not least by a forum which calls itself a ‘Rumour Network’ and has damaged lives in the past.

We will take this further, and given the ‘what-have-we-got-to-lose’ situation we now find ourselves in, we will pursue any perceived wrong-doing with as much vigour as it was given out.

Please take note on the comments and remarks you may leave on forums in the future. They are long-lasting and damaging. They affect far more people than you expect, far-reaching from our Company itself, and are far out of proportion to any ‘complaint’ or objection you felt you had. If you were aware of how wrong you were, you would see the facts and would reel back. In the case of the main individual on this forum; he lacks this balance. Undeniable through the contradictory comments he has left; his desire to not see the Company address issues; his un-called for, personal attacks on an individual, his distortion of the truth and the very fact that he feels the need to lie about his background and circumstances.

The owner has meticulous notes of events and decisions taken in recent years and on recent discussions with friends and colleagues, has acted in the best interests of customers and suppliers at all times, tirelessly, for years. While the individuals of this forum will likely continue or find a new target, we will move on from this in time.

We fully expect this post to receive a short and terse dismissal, and will not expect to find any support in a forum like this one. But do take heed that- in this age of recession and proliferation of media programming about ‘rogue’ companies; one needs to remain grounded and, at times, should not judge companies against what they hear or read. We thank the majority of customers who did have a problem for being so patient and understanding, and not taking matters to the nonsense-extremes we read here.

In closing thank you to the customers who have supported us over the years. We are sorry to not be able to serve you again, and we hope that you go on to flourish in your hobbies and activities.

We will not re-visit this forum again, nor give it any recognition as a place for genuine news or information, and therefore we are signing-off now. Any news will be posted onto our website only.

[Saab Dastard]

For those who cannot face wading through the lengthy post above, I have taken the liberty of highlighting the key message, about 3/4 of the way down.

SD

[Fly-by-Wife]

The following message appears at the top of the Proviation Home page:

Pilot Shop Update: Please visit our news page for an urgent shop announcement. Thanks.

The following message appears on the (rather harder to find) Proviation News page:

URGENT NEWS : 11 FEBRUARY 2014

As of 11 February, we have received news that we cannot accept credit or debit cards through our existing provider. We have only had a brief trading period with this provider, and so we do not have sufficient trading history with them in order to change this outcome.

Unfortunately our website was offline for much of last week, and various parts of the site were not working correctly during the times the site was online. This seems to have panicked some customers into charging back their cards in a very short period. This, combined with our site being offline, has tripped the risk management controls at our merchant bank.

We are now unable to accept cards on our store, and therefore the company is rendered useless. In addition, amounts owed to the company by our card processor will now be withheld, in order to re-pay any affected customers. Therefore the company is short of a great deal of planned income.

We are obligated not to ship any further orders.

We have a strict time limit on refunds, and have tried to complete as many as possible before midnight on 11th February to ensure they go through.

We have already refunded numerous recent orders which had not left recently. We have issued order cancellation messages to those orders by email and your refund will appear shortly.

For any other outstanding orders, we will try to get the refund put through our merchant account. Please check your account over the next 7 days.

We would like to express with absolute truth that this circumstance was completely unexpected. While it is a simple commercial decision for a large banking corporation to take, it is a devastating blow to a small business. This blow was dealt on Monday 10th February, and the final decision was taken on 11th February.

We have been trading very successfully for over 6 years, and have had the pleasure of serving many customers.

As a small company, this decision cannot be taken lightly as it has delivered a crushing prospect.

There are ways and means to re-claim money for any goods not yet delivered, however we have done our utmost to ensure these orders are already refunded. Similarly we have been able to withhold charging cards since November 2013 for orders which could not be immediately fulfilled, so in many cases, your order hasn't been charged and obviously, will not be.

We are tremendously unhappy that the Company is in this position. However, it does not provide for any way forward in the world of e-commerce.

We would like, genuinely, to thank our customers for bringing their custom to Proviation. We offer our sincerest thanks for giving us a chance over these past six years. We have tried to bring new products to market, and we hope that the aviation community in the UK looks to the USA and the wealth of exciting products available, and to the UK manufacturers who continue to support the industry as a whole.

As a smaller company, we recognise that the family companies in the UK play a key part in the fabric of the sector and we hope that our demise will not affect your buying choices in the future.

No one starts a business to fail; however we have satisfied thousands of customers over six years, and we are pleased to have brought new business to our suppliers.

We wish you, whether pilot or otherwise, blue skies and happy landings in life.

Best wishes,

Proviation Ltd.

Good luck to the creditors, and those awaiting refunds.

I wonder what will happen to the other "enterprises" - Home - Proviation Air Express, Home - Airfield Equipment UK & Europe and Welcome - fly.sba

Out of curiosity, since the proviation shop website is still up and running, I tried placing an order on one of the multitudinous items still in stock. Lo and behold, you can go through the order process and select payment by cheque, PayPal etc. but not by credit card.

I'd have thought that if it had genuinely ceased trading it would be a simple matter to take down the site, leaving just the above closure message on the home page. Apparently not.

Be warned!

FBW

[abgd]

No sorrow from this dissatisfied customer. Congratulations to Paul Kerry and others. This all went on for far too long.

[India Four Two]

Good news, but perhaps not for those trying to get refunds.

Well done Paul, for having the stamina to keep shining the spotlight on this sad saga.

[Blues&twos]

So, everyone else's fault..... as usual.
He won't recognise PPRuNe? So what difference will that make to anyone??

Trying to give us a bollocking, Nick? Unbelievable!

[On the Spot]

Hmmm

our original order was August 2013 and that was finally responded in December 2013 - that it could not be supplied.
No further response until 28 Jan when approaching as a new customer I made contact. A week later a further promise that a newer version of the ordered unit "could be despatched the following week".
No response or contact since and no refund of the originally paid order sum of 200 quid.

The experience does contradict the long winded assertions by Proviation above.

The statement concerning "no obligation to ship outstanding orders" appears to be insolvency.
We need to determine definitely if it is insolvency or simply closure for convenience that is underway and take appropriate action to register any claim and or involve credit card recovery.

[PaulKerry]

Nick's sour grapes make such sweet whine !

... and when I get some time, I will be responding to some of the untruthful things written in the recent post by Bloviation.

My schedule for today includes the very client that Nick (or his spokesperson) claims does not exist. It's going to be interesting to hear her reaction when I tell her of the latest developments.

Just a thought - Does this mean that the "trade-association" of only one member is now going to be a trade association of none?

Paul..

[On the Spot]

facebuck / bloviation

The page can be reported to the site operators for removal and if enough people do so they will hopefully act.

Likewise I wonder if the web hosting service for bloviation could be persuaded to act if the company is indeed effectively in liquidation

[DerekJS]

I am no expert in writing styles, but that very lengthy saga a few posts up does not suggest it was written by the same person that I recognise as Proviation, perhaps a grown up is now helping ?
"Undeniable through the contradictory comments he has left" was one of the phrases that caught my eye as the limited contacts I had were so full of contradictions from them, that even now I find it hard to believe.

My hope is that those still owed goods or refunds by them are able to receive them soon, and that no-one else falls into this pit of incompetence once called Proviation .


Paul

Derek Slater

[cockney steve]

Glad to see this leeching , parasitical ,dishonest entity has been forced out of business BY A CREDIT CARD PROVIDER who, presumably, as a somewhat more professional and larger enterprise than Proviation, studied the latter's FIVE YEAR HISTORY and withdrew their services.

Thanks to SAAB DASTARD for the salient highlight.....I gave up the will to wade through that delusional verbal diarrhoea, long before that point.

Every person who got their money back, should give thanks to Paul Kerry
and ABGD, who's forensic analysis helped to point-up the systematic deception that was taking place.

I feel sorry for the not-insignificant number of "customers" who didn't shout loudly -enough for long enough....I guess they have subsidised Nicks lifestyle and have less chance of seeing their money back, than of seeing their order delivered.

Finally, Nick...I really hope you seek the psychiatric help you so obviously need. You are ill! You are unable to run a company in a proper, legal, moral and ethical manner.....some would say you're a small -time crook, but your long screed above shows clearly that you are seriously deluded.....seek help before the authorities forcibly lock you up.

It will be very educational to see the winding-up details for this company and find out just how many honest, hard-working people were defrauded of just how much money!

[Bobby9768]

Hi Paul,

Well well well. Ceased trading - I wonder if that is genuine or just a means of putting some people off chasing him. As someone else wrote, it is hard to find this "news" on the Proviation web site. I can't help thinking that he doesn't want visitors on the site to see it either - otherwise why not paste the message at the top of the front page in bold letters?

No, he did not offer a bribe or mention anything about removing my entry on Trustpilot (I suppose I managed that quite well myself by not following the rules ). Neither did he bleat about "family business", "misunderstood" or similar, he just took exception to my use of such words as "Con" and "Fraud". The refund info he sent to me I have sent on to Sage and enquired if indeed this is going through. I could just wait and see, but quite frankly after dealing with Nick I am tired of waiting...... not much seems to come out of that....

Martin

[On the Spot]

Ceased Trading

I received a pdf of a letter confirmed the cessation but also saying that there were no funds to undertake a voluntary liquidation and so they are waiting for a debtor to start the winding up procedure for them.

text below with apols for format loss:-

I hope this finds you well.

This letter is to notify you of the current position with regards to the account for Proviation Ltd.

We believe we have been heavily targeted in recent times by those wishing to harm the company’s reputation, and ongoing strained relations with our merchant card services providers over the last 12 months.

We had our second merchant account terminated in October when the business was re-assessed prior to Christmas 2013, and we could not agree to the harsh restrictions. Unfortunately following a 3 month review with our current merchant, based on the lack of trading history, and a recent spate of eight charge-backs caused by website-server, our current merchant account terminated. Our store is restricted on what platforms we can take payment through, and these have been exhausted.

The extensive damage caused by merchant account holds and closures in the past 18 months has placed the business in a particularly precarious position, and a Catch-22, wherein we are unable to build sufficient trading history with a merchant in order to build a valuable relationship.

It is with sincere and deepest regret that I must inform you that Proviation Ltd has now been rendered insolvent and must cease trading with immediate effect. This is the most difficult decision imaginable, but has been forced upon me, and is the right thing to do in respect of my legal responsibilities as Director.

Unfortunately due to the recent difficult times, the Company has no available funds to appoint an insolvency practitioner to thereby initiate a voluntary liquidation. As sole director and as a family which depended on the business solely for our livelihoods, we have not taken sufficient wage, nor have disposable assets available to fund this personally. As there is HMRC debt, we expect that HMRC will initiate the winding-up proceedings through the High Court, or we invite a creditor to proceed with this on this route.

We do sincerely thank you with the utmost gratitude for your support of Proviation, and trust that on balance our relationship was a profitable one. Please know that I have done everything possible to build a successful and long-lasting business, and I sincerely regret this position. I wish you all the very best in your own company.

Yours sincerely,

Nick Ross

[Tim Dawson]

I read the whole post. For me the saddest thing is that all it would have taken would have been to come here and post honestly in response to any problems, saying what the resolutions were. If you actually defend yourself (and have nothing to hide) in threads such as these, you can be saved.


Unfortunately, it would appear his position was indefensible.

[Jonzarno]

A couple of thoughts on the post from Proviation.

For those connoisseurs of the late lamented Skyferry / Weaver Thread, there must be a bit of a sense of déjà vu about a long, rambling and self justifying post made at 1 o'clock in the morning.

For me, the most significant development is that Proviation says it has stopped trading because it has lost it's credit / debit card service provider. I recall posting about this being a consequence of what they were alleged to be doing back in August 2013 and now it seems to have happened.

This is something banks do reluctantly and, as I understand it from the Proviation post, results from a significant number of charge backs. Card companies do require proof of default before crediting cardholders, otherwise it's just too easy to buy something and make a spurious claim.

Of course, in order for there to be a charge back, there must obviously have been a charge in the first place so these incidents must refer to real orders placed on the company.

This would seem to bear out claims that Proviation has been charging cards before shipping the products ordered, and has been slow or unwilling to make refunds. Reputable companies don't do either of these things and if that is not the case, I do not believe that the card company would be cancelling their facility.

They also say that they have a short trading history with that card company. Is so, it begs the question of who were they using before, and under what circumstances did they leave that previous provider?

They also claim that false reviews have been posted on TrustPilot.

Reading many of the reviews, this does not ring true because of the level of product specific detail quoted in them, and that several seem to be from people with a long history as posters on this and other aviation forums (ie not "reviews for hire" folks).

Since writing the above, I have also just read the last but one post and have to say it makes me rather sad: I don't like seeing any business go bust, even if these guys do seem rather to have brought it on themselves.

Since posting, I have seen Tim's post and have to say I agree entirely. It didn't have to end like this.

[Proviation]

Following the news the record should be set straight on some points rather than allowing this to break loose in any which direction:

1) The site went offline for 3 days last week- 1&1 could not confirm why, although the server was online.
2) We received a spate of 8 chargebacks covering a two day period. Of these 2 were defended as shipped. 1 was defended as being less than 30 days from date of order. 1 was on hold pending a quote for an increase in oil shipping to Northern Europe, and this went to chargeback before asking for refund. A Mr. Brown was issued a refund on 31 Jan and did not reply. We sent numerous updates since then to ask if the order could be released. A Miss Fell has a parcelforce tracking number. Another has an interlink express tracking number.

We submitted defences for all but 2 claims.

I sent this to our merchant bank:

"

Lack of contact recently due to our shop site being down multiple times over the last 2-3 weeks. Most notably w/c 27 Jan. This impacted on
A) Customers being able to log in to check their order and read messages. The separately hosted 'self service area' was offline.
B) We were unable to access the order management of the site (also based online)
C) Customer fear that something had happened to the company.

I attach some recent emails to our hosts, 1&1 – my most recent email to them – you’ll see in my opening line I say “once again”, as this had been on-going. I also have other emails I can send, plus twitter support messages to prove that I believe our shop being repeatedly offline has caused some of these problems. "

We traded with our first merchant account from day one for approx 4.5 years with no issues until we took on a mass market electronics product and our turnover peaked in Dec 2012. Merchants view the seasonal period as high risk and we were re-assessed on this basis. We were under review until June 2013. The bank and my company elected to part ways as we could not agree that the business should be penalised throughout the year on the basis of seasonal trade- which would not be repeated.

I was naive and should have kept the account open. Once you terminate an account a domino effect ensues. You have quarterly reviews on trading style, product range, order values. Our second account was set up in haste by a salesperson and should have been more closely scrutinised prior to set-up. It lasted only 3 months.

It is unheard of to have three accounts. On the basis of the above downtime coinciding with a 3 monthly review almost exactly accompanied by a batch of chargebacks received combined with people being told to go to chargeback on this thread, they closed the account on the basis of risk.
Merchant banks take risks in supplying card services- however we invested a security deposit into our merchant account of a substantial sum of money. This will not be released for 120 days and remains in place to cover chargebacks.

We enjoyed very strong Christmas sales this year and a busy January. We received 8 chargebacks totalling £511.00. We had the facility in place not to charge cards, and most of these were only charged as they had been sent, part sent, or were pending delivery or refund for cancellation/return. Prior to these 8, the company received only 3 chargebacks from November. Companies are expected to receive a high number over Christmas. 1/3 were successfully defended.

"(Proviation) has been slow or unwilling to make refunds" Refunds failed after termination of our second account in October as the merchant refused to allow refunds. We processed them and they sat in limbo. We had to send cheques or bank transfers,effectively paying twice. In these instances unscrupulous customers could have also filed chargeback claims and received money twice over. We still issued the refunds, nonetheless.

"They also claim that false reviews have been posted on TrustPilot" We claim to have been 'set up' on a few occasions. We got wise to 'customers' ordering very small items shipping to fake addresses.

We attracted many good reviews recently which Paul Kerry did not want you to see. He blocked them. However Trustpilot re-instated them once customers had surrendered their personal and order information.

"all it would have taken would have been to come here and post honestly in response to any problems". I would have said the exact same thing, and I did post responses when this thread was young. I came to be eaten alive and resigned myself to think I couldn't possibly say the right thing. I was told my language was flowery, or that I was talking 'BS'. The occasion where we handled a Dynon D2 repair and commented on this stands out in my mind. We tried to explain the unit had to be checked and inspected before a return could be made. We arranged UPS to collect it. We turned it as fast as possible but not fast enough.

"Just a thought - Does this mean that the "trade-association" of only one member is now going to be a trade association of none?"

I didn't have time to pursue AEAS. It was designed so that manufacturers could sign up in order to agree to respond to customer feedback if ever a product was deemed unsuitable for use in aviation, or required modification. It was to be a reassurance that members would only sell products to customers that met high standards, and collectively would withdraw products from sale which did not meet certain criteria or received complaints. As an unregulated sector in terms of products, it came to me as an idea to start it.

"The page can be reported to the site operators for removal and if enough people do so they will hopefully act" The checkout is offline and there is a notice in red writing at the top of each page. There needs to be a place to assist customers affected- Pprune is not this place. Our news page needs to remain live.
Sorry but I cannot replace the site with a generic page yet but it is being worked on. This only happened 48 hours ago so you'll need to bear with me.

"Congratulations to Paul Kerry and others" For closing a business? I'm sorry but regardless of the length of this thread, we did continue trading successfully. Our shop is too old to integrate with any other merchant services gateways, and regardless of this, we cannot source a new account. It is actually this simple. Clearly we have bills to pay and outgoings whereby we cannot take a 6 week break without a merchant facility as happened in October. This event last year was the catalyst for what has occured now.

Lastly, since people can speculate on my background and call me various names I had never, ever, expected to be called in my life (mug that I am for starting a company in this industry); take note that Paul Kerry is most definitely not who he says he is. If he is working, then he is doing so illegally. I have nothing to gain from giving you this information- just to suggest that I am not the one aiming to deceive.

I wanted to post to wrap up some final comments since the closure announcement and will now close-off. Thank you.