Warning for new Solo pilots

[Frelon]

Many years ago whilst flying from Blackbushe I turned downwind and called "G-ABCD downwind for runway 07"

Immediately after I heard "G-ABCE downwind for runway 25!"

Bottom clinching moment as I saw this other aircraft in the distance heading towards me at circuit height! Mental process kicks in - "Am I in the right, or is he??"

As it happened he quickly realised that he was in the wrong and turned away, having been confused about the runway change that had occurred whilst he had been out of the circuit!

Lesson learnt by both parties, I hope. Check runway in use, and check again!!

[alland2012]

As a new member here, and also as a student pilot busy right now with my PPL training, I would like to thank the OP for starting this thread and for the input from the experienced pilots here in response to the thread topic.

It is something else to jot down in my note book and discuss with my instructor.

Thank you..

[aluminium persuader]

Mate, just assuming you're talking about Morrabbin, can I suggest you give ATC a call & go over & have a chat with them? I know some of them very well, and they're not that bad!
They'll be able to explain everything & give you lots more hints & tips besides, in what can be a pretty tricky area.

For an extra-special welcome and 1st-class treatment, take doughnuts!

ap

[Grob Queen]

An interesting thread and its made me aware of what could happen it the cct when flying solo and what I would do. A few thoughts come to mind which some of you experienced guys may be able to clarify.

Option one - Continue further downwind before turning base. yep, I can see thats a good option. however, to play devils advocate, there is a danger of getting lost, especially for a second solo with presumably little knowledge of local area and none of nav. This would be the same if one was to fly away from the safety of "home" and the cct at this stage...how would you cope if you had not been taught PFLS (ok, so EFATOs probably have been taught by that stage). This course of action surely puts more stress on we Studes?

Option two (and what I think I would personally do) is fly to the landmark which ATC and everyone at our place use as a hold, mosey around there for a bit and inform ATC that I was "holding around the mast" they would know exactly what I meant and would hopefully give me new instructions.

Another option of course is to check on the ATIS again for rwy in use.

Another option is for the early solos at least not to go solo when the cct is busy or when ATC Is operating. This is how my instructor has played it with me, three weeks ago I went solo for the fourth time, but it was the first with ATC operating; and the cct was not that busy. Even then there was an issue and the Tower got very stroppy with me for crossing 19 threshold without a clearance when both my instructor and I had definitely heard the clearance was through to 26!

Many thanks to the OP for starting this thread, it certainly does make one think!

[thing]

Where's the mast that you're talking about?

[Crash one]

Simplest option is a "teardrop turn" at the end of the "old" downwind & reposition. Which is fine if traffic permits, it's a straight reversal & you know where you are. But for a first/second solo stude, "never done that before" it could be a major issue. Making a level turn at 1000ft at the place they are used to pulling the revs down to the regulation 1500 & two stage of flaps, completely alien. The other thing I never liked was "Turn left at the building with the red doors, Left a bit round the Police station mast, Turn final just before the Golf clubhouse".
One day I'm gonna paint them doors blue & really bugger up the circuit.

[Grob Queen]

Carlton Scroop Radio mast to the south west. We are often told to "report when abeam the mast" or "hold at mast". Very useful if coming home from that direction and doing a low level join or straight in to 08.

[riverrock83]

IMHO an instructor should have their student ready to deal with whatever the likely scenarios are at their aerodrome before allowing them to go off solo. I soloed at a large (albeit pretty quiet) international airport. Pre-solo I knew how to orbit when downwind and plan my spacing in relation to 737s coming in. At other places, if I heard that there was a 747 coming in I might get a bit distracted! Turned out I didn't need to - but I was prepared.

The OP has logged 60 hours (before soloing), presumably a fair amount of that where he soloed. I suspect that wasn't the first time that he (with an instructor on board) needed to switch runways, and his instructor would have been confident that he could do it. If his instructor wasn't, there would / should have been some quick phone calls to ATC! However - mistakes can be made by anybody - I've learnt something in his post which is good.

The link that Mad Dog posted of the AAIB report shows what can happen when a student is given something they don't have experience in dealing with. I'm definitely glad of the "student" tag on first contact with ATC here. Maybe it should be adopted everywhere else?

[Jan Olieslagers]

I am not sure who is in the wrong here

After some effort in deciphering your input, I can't see the point. You were in controlled airspace, weren't you? Isn't the tower controller in charge of her/his airspace, and responsible for all wright and all rong?

Except in case of blatant and proven error on your behalf - and I could find none in your story, though of course that is only one side of the medal - you were not in the wrong. So if anybody was in the wrong, it was the controller. Aren't controllers supposed to provide separation?

[[edit: the one blame you could get was to have reported "downwind" when it would have been "middle of downwind" - I learned that "downwind" with no further detail defaults to "beginning of downwind". But I find that only rarely practised, if ever.]]

[mary meagher]

Albert Whitted Airport, St. Petersburg Florida. I was taking my dear departed husband for a jolly in a rented Warrior, to look at the lovely beaches. Set up for return to Runway 36. ATC told me that ahead in the circuit was not one but TWO experimental aircraft, flying in formation! I saw them all right, there were two of them, and they were flying so slowly I couldn't hang in the air behind them, so got permission to orbit for spacing.

And when I had made my orbit, the two flying bedsheets had completely vanished! I carried on down the approach, eyes on stalks, and of a sudden saw them, on my right, sashaying down the final approach for Runway 27!

Said I to the Tower, in an accusatory tone, "You've changed the runway!"

Said the Tower "We wondered when you would notice......!"

[BackPacker]

After some effort in deciphering your input, I can't see the point. You were in controlled airspace, weren't you? Isn't the tower controller in charge of her/his airspace, and responsible for all wright and all rong?

Jan, may I kindly suggest you do a re-read of air law? In virtually all controlled airspace that pre-PPL solo students encounter, VFR traffic is responsible for its own separation. That includes adjusting the circuit to suit other traffic. The exception to this would probably be a class B CTR, which is very rare in Europe, and even then ATC will expect you to act sensibly and not cut in front of other traffic.

Turning base at the "usual" point (wherever that is) and thereby cutting off traffic in front is a big no-no, both in controlled and uncontrolled airspace.

Option one - Continue further downwind before turning base. yep, I can see thats a good option. however, to play devils advocate, there is a danger of getting lost, especially for a second solo with presumably little knowledge of local area and none of nav. This would be the same if one was to fly away from the safety of "home" and the cct at this stage...how would you cope if you had not been taught PFLS (ok, so EFATOs probably have been taught by that stage). This course of action surely puts more stress on we Studes?

If there's just one aircraft ahead, surely you don't plan on extending downwind to outside the ATZ, or turn it into a cross-country? Anyway, there's always the option of orbiting on downwind (turn away from the runway please, so orbit over right with a left hand circuit) if significant spacing is required. Typically due to an IFR straight-in approach on final.

Another option is for the early solos at least not to go solo when the cct is busy or when ATC Is operating.

[My bold]

Seriously? You're not scared of ATC, are you? It's definitely something you have to get used to, but they are honestly there to help you, not to be a nuisance or danger to aircraft.

On the other hand, if you only flew with an instructor outside operating hours and never experienced ATC during your dual flights, your instructor should never have let you solo when ATC was operating.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Backpacker, my apologies if I was wrong, or have made incorrect assumptions about O/P's environment. Round here, controlled a/d's are all in class C, and I do seem to remember that this means ALL traffic is controlled and hence separated. But I might well be wrong, as I am not supposed to enter controlled airspace anyway I can't claim much authority on the subject.
[[edit: checked my old course notes and must admit I got it wrong. Even in class C, VFR traffic are separated from IFR traffic but not from other VFR traffic; they do receive traffic information and can request traffic avoidance advice. Apologies!]]

Needless to say I heartily agree with all your other points.

[Vizsla]

It was or still is customary in the Uk for the instructor to go to the tower during the first solo or at least have a hand held to monitor the flight.
In this case he should have intervened with ATC to get his pupil down safely

[BackPacker]

Round here, controlled a/d's are all in class C, and I do seem to remember that this means ALL traffic is controlled and hence separated.

My home base is EHRD, which is class C. Yes, it is controlled in the sense that we need clearance for everything we want to do. That also means that ATC will inform us of the landing order once we get in the circuit. But once we've gotten our assigned number it's up to us to maintain proper separation so that number 2 lands when number 1 just vacates the runway. Ideally, that is. By default, ATC doesn't call you for the base turn or any other turn in the circuit.

Exceptions to this are if you can't see the traffic but ATC can, or if ATC wants to deviate from the 'standard' spacing for some reason: Either putting you very close behind the number 1 because he's a T&G anyway, or further behind because ATC is planning a departure in between.

What also complicates matters is that ATC sometimes uses three different circuit altitudes. If it's busy, aircraft that are doing training circuits are kept at 500', aircraft on the Mike arrival are kept at 1000' and aircraft at Romeo and Hotel arrivals are kept at 1500'. Obviously in that situation it's very hard to see other traffic, so ATC will tell you when to turn base, and when to descend. All in a days work. And great fun once you're used to it.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Thanks for patiently explaining. It corresponds with much of my own observations at Antwerp EBAW, though they only have (and need) a single circuit altitude there.

BTW knowing what I now know, I would find 500' alarmingly low as a student in PPL training - but ignorance is of course bliss, and then there's always the instructor to sort things out if they go wrong, that's what instructors are for!

[BackPacker]

Well, you need to remember that 500' MSL is actually 515' AGL at Rotterdam, so it's not too bad...

[mad_jock]

Jan you need to go and find out the difference between tower control and radar. Once tower is responsable for seperation the rules change.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/2008901...ficationV3.pdf

Here is the UK airspace classes VFR isn't seperated from VFR in class C.

And Vizsal there is no requiment for an instructor to be in the tower or have a hand held in the UK or for that matter to watch.

And to be honest why an instructor should take control away from a trained ATCO who has been trained for over two years to stop aircraft hitting each other I don't know certainly wasn't covered in my FIC.

Also having two people giving instructions on frequency is just going to add to the confusion.

I also suspect its illegal and you would be setting yourself up for a manslaughter charge if there was an accident.

Another point for students is that if your not feeling confident or want max protection don't tell a controller that your visual with anything. If you do that they have to visually seperate you from the tower and "control" you to deconflict. As soon as you declare visual the onus then comes to you to remain seperated. (Which is what Jan needs to read about)

And another report to make you think

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...LZ%2012-10.pdf

[Jan Olieslagers]

Radar? What's radar got to do with it? Who mentioned radar anyway?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Here is the UK airspace classes VFR isn't seperated from VFR in class C.

Nothing to do with the UK - only to do with my own admitted and corrected mistake.

[mad_jock]

Well class C needs radar and if tower is seperating you there are different rules to when radar is seperating you even if you are IFR. If you say the wrong thing you can be completely on your tod.

For example if you request a visual approach IFR and you are given one. From then on they only have to pass traffic info and seperation is the pilots problem.

The are alot of folk out there who don't realise the rules that ATC actually run with. Personally I have never seen them written down in any pilot training, the only reason why I have a rough idea is multiple pints in the pub with ATCO's and 10 years experence and various bum clenchers.

Alot of pilots think they are seperated from other traffic when they actually arn't and its up to them to look out the window.