What makes a Flying School a good school?
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- Charging reasonable prices (not necessarily cheap but reasonable!)
- Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work rather than having INOP stickers overs everything and looking like it belongs to the Rodney Trotter School Of Flying - it will put potential students off if they think you are cutting corners by not maintaining aircraft, first impressions count!
J.
- Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work rather than having INOP stickers overs everything and looking like it belongs to the Rodney Trotter School Of Flying - it will put potential students off if they think you are cutting corners by not maintaining aircraft, first impressions count!
J.
As a student PPL I don't really have the experience to judge how good my flying school is relative to others. However, some things that I've really appreciated are:
1) Having lots of other pilots hanging around - from other students to skygods. To have some kind of comfortable club room is critical. Keeping it cold to encourage sales of club hoodies (a story I heard) is false economy. I'm sure that I learn lots of somewhat intangible but important things through listening to pilot stories.
2) Good (i.e. flyable) weather most of the time. I know this can't be guaranteed anywhere, but some places are much better than others.
3) Bad weather most of the time. In my book, ideally the weather would be moderately challenging most days. It should obviously be CAVOK, nil wind every Saturday so that first solos can be scheduled though.
4) A few schools told me that they were currently too busy with intensive students to take on any more. My current school probably has slightly too many students for the course to be completely 'intensive'. This leads to fairly substantial cost increases - it costs at least several hundred pounds a week to be off work and perhaps staying in a hotel. If you're intensive you want 2-3 hours a day whenever the weather is willing, and anything that means you only get 1 is a problem. Really, this has been the only issue I've had with my school. As I like 'most everything else, I can live with it.
5) Transparent costs - I've found this works both ways. Many schools fail to mention landing fees, which if they are applied to touch-and-goes become rather substantial. My school neglected to mention the fact that landing fees are included until I asked. The list of 'extras' such as airside passes can end up being quite substantial. The flipside of the deal is that prospective students should reward honesty and not be put off by flying schools that have more costs listed.
6) I bought lots of materials such as the Air Pilot's Manuals and a flight computer prior to starting my course. I couldn't find a school that would discount the price of a full PPL on the basis that I owned a lot of the materials already. I agree that the discount wouldn't have been substantial in flying terms... But it seems terribly inflexible to me.
7) In the current economic climate, I decided that I didn't really want to pay up front for lessons anyway in case the school went bust before I had completed the course. If I'd been able to find any flying school that held money in escrow or gave a rebate at the end of the course I'd have counted it as a major plus point.
Another thought - I once heard somebody mention that people enquiring about PPLs were almost always dreamers who wouldn't come back. I guess this may be true sometimes - maybe even often - but any sensible punter will talk to at least half a dozen flying schools before making a decision. I think I must have talked to about 12 and looked online at rather more. The impression on the ground will inevitably be that most people don't come back. The inference that most people weren't serious about flying isn't justified.
Anyway, I wonder if this partly explains the fairly indifferent attitude towards prospective students that both I and many other people on this thread have noted.
1) Having lots of other pilots hanging around - from other students to skygods. To have some kind of comfortable club room is critical. Keeping it cold to encourage sales of club hoodies (a story I heard) is false economy. I'm sure that I learn lots of somewhat intangible but important things through listening to pilot stories.
2) Good (i.e. flyable) weather most of the time. I know this can't be guaranteed anywhere, but some places are much better than others.
3) Bad weather most of the time. In my book, ideally the weather would be moderately challenging most days. It should obviously be CAVOK, nil wind every Saturday so that first solos can be scheduled though.
4) A few schools told me that they were currently too busy with intensive students to take on any more. My current school probably has slightly too many students for the course to be completely 'intensive'. This leads to fairly substantial cost increases - it costs at least several hundred pounds a week to be off work and perhaps staying in a hotel. If you're intensive you want 2-3 hours a day whenever the weather is willing, and anything that means you only get 1 is a problem. Really, this has been the only issue I've had with my school. As I like 'most everything else, I can live with it.
5) Transparent costs - I've found this works both ways. Many schools fail to mention landing fees, which if they are applied to touch-and-goes become rather substantial. My school neglected to mention the fact that landing fees are included until I asked. The list of 'extras' such as airside passes can end up being quite substantial. The flipside of the deal is that prospective students should reward honesty and not be put off by flying schools that have more costs listed.
6) I bought lots of materials such as the Air Pilot's Manuals and a flight computer prior to starting my course. I couldn't find a school that would discount the price of a full PPL on the basis that I owned a lot of the materials already. I agree that the discount wouldn't have been substantial in flying terms... But it seems terribly inflexible to me.
7) In the current economic climate, I decided that I didn't really want to pay up front for lessons anyway in case the school went bust before I had completed the course. If I'd been able to find any flying school that held money in escrow or gave a rebate at the end of the course I'd have counted it as a major plus point.
Another thought - I once heard somebody mention that people enquiring about PPLs were almost always dreamers who wouldn't come back. I guess this may be true sometimes - maybe even often - but any sensible punter will talk to at least half a dozen flying schools before making a decision. I think I must have talked to about 12 and looked online at rather more. The impression on the ground will inevitably be that most people don't come back. The inference that most people weren't serious about flying isn't justified.
Anyway, I wonder if this partly explains the fairly indifferent attitude towards prospective students that both I and many other people on this thread have noted.
Last edited by abgd; 7th Jan 2012 at 07:37.
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Lots of great suggestions here. A few of mine:
Customer service/retention:
-Front desk staff that is warm and friendly. This is huge.
-Introduce students to each other, invite them to back seat each other's flights.
-Have the students try different instructors, especially if they are plateauing at all.
-Make sure the more advanced students know that they are an example to the newer students and should make an effort to be responsible/welcoming/helpful.
-Punctuality.
-No hidden costs. Everyone knows flight training is going to be expensive. If you feel nickel and dimed though, it can be very off putting.
-Encourage them to take photographs and video. If they share their experience with their friends they'll be less likely to quit.
Instructing points:
-Debriefing after every flight.
-Clean windscreens. Never saw anyone clean a windscreen at my US flight school, at my NZ one it was part of every preflight.
-Experience actually using different airports, not just taxi back and take off. Refueling, using an FBO, finding parking, these are things I had to learn on my own, when they could have easily been shown to me by my instructor during cross country flights. (This can be filed under "teach to fly, not just pass the checkride")
-More focus on weather decisions. These are the hardest decisions to make as a fresh pilot, they need lots of focus. Have your students interpret the weather every day, make their decision, then call an experienced instructor to talk about their interpretation.
-During flights, ask your students what they would do if they were running out of fuel, if a passenger was sick, started losing RPM, a door is open on take-off, low voltage light goes on, find broken equipment at a foreign airport, etc.
These things will leave your fresh PPLs safer and more confident, which means they'll enjoy flying much more.
Customer service/retention:
-Front desk staff that is warm and friendly. This is huge.
-Introduce students to each other, invite them to back seat each other's flights.
-Have the students try different instructors, especially if they are plateauing at all.
-Make sure the more advanced students know that they are an example to the newer students and should make an effort to be responsible/welcoming/helpful.
-Punctuality.
-No hidden costs. Everyone knows flight training is going to be expensive. If you feel nickel and dimed though, it can be very off putting.
-Encourage them to take photographs and video. If they share their experience with their friends they'll be less likely to quit.
Instructing points:
-Debriefing after every flight.
-Clean windscreens. Never saw anyone clean a windscreen at my US flight school, at my NZ one it was part of every preflight.
-Experience actually using different airports, not just taxi back and take off. Refueling, using an FBO, finding parking, these are things I had to learn on my own, when they could have easily been shown to me by my instructor during cross country flights. (This can be filed under "teach to fly, not just pass the checkride")
-More focus on weather decisions. These are the hardest decisions to make as a fresh pilot, they need lots of focus. Have your students interpret the weather every day, make their decision, then call an experienced instructor to talk about their interpretation.
-During flights, ask your students what they would do if they were running out of fuel, if a passenger was sick, started losing RPM, a door is open on take-off, low voltage light goes on, find broken equipment at a foreign airport, etc.
These things will leave your fresh PPLs safer and more confident, which means they'll enjoy flying much more.
Moderator
- Charging reasonable prices (not necessarily cheap but reasonable!)
The club at which I learned to fly had these nice things, and I appreciated them, but it was also the most expensive place to learn to fly anywhere around. You get what you pay for....
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To me being welcomed is one of the most important, as has been mentioned if you don't feel welcomed you won't chose that school. I have visited a local flight school on 2 occasions and on both visits I spent over an hour talking with the instructors, I was shown a very clear pricing structure and got lots of useful advice. When I'm ready to do my PPL I know exactly what school I will be using.
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- Charging reasonable prices (not necessarily cheap but reasonable!)
- Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work
- Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work
Maintenance to a 100% functionality can be quite expensive, unless the aircraft has almost no avionics. I do that myself, but then I look after it well (including 0.5kg of silica gel in the cockpit, changed weekly), and it is hangared. And I actually use the avionics, whereas most renters are VFR only.
This topic has been done to death here many times, being closely tied in with what one can do to stimulate GA activity and reduce the % of pilots who drop out soon after getting their PPL.
I would put "mentoring" (yeah I know it is a currently trendy term, and a lot of people in the industry disapprove of it) very high up, and in the flying school context this means having experienced pilots as members and actively supporting them even if they are no longer customers.... even if they take passengers with them in their own plane (and possibly accept cost sharing contributions), these being passengers which the school regards as its own property
Lots of old chestnuts there
You will solve the Euro debt before you solve these.And this is why we have what we have. Most of the industry scraping out the bottom of the barrel with beaten up old wreckage.
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Been reading this thread with interest.
Love the picture painted there, can just imagine Del and Rodney "becoming miwyunaires" with their flying school....taking some advice off Boycie perhaps... However, if there is a U/S sticker on the aircraft or on the e-booking system, this shouldn't surely put potential students off? Its just realistic. Sometimes, you just can't help it if an aircraft is u/s for a long time.
As a student who has this from two very good ex-RAF pilot friends, I totally agree with you Peter, it gives another experienced, trusted viewpoint for the student to ask, so they don't just rely on their instructor; its someone else to bounce issues off and also once qualified, another pilot to go flying with on the first few trips as a fresh PPL just for that extra security (I know thats what i'll be doing once qualified!)
I only have experience of our club, but some of the points raised are so true...a club which is student friendly and welcomes new members, one with a laid back attitude so it doesn't feel like "school". Don't like the idea of this formal homework someone mentioned! PPL students will work hard at home without QFI motivation, the motivation to get the licence is all I certainly need, and am doing everything to get it.
One with great socials and fly-ins where the students are just as much respected members of the club as the experienced pilots.
One where, again as someone said, the student gets stuck into everything...washing the aircraft, pre-flight aircraft cx, checking the ATIS, Wx, NOTAMS, Out Brief, booking out with ATC, fuelling-up after flight, putting the aircraft away if not being used again, closing and locking the Hangar and the Club if the last one out and volunteering for Duty Pilot duties once every three months (a great way to learn Ground procedures).These are all things which I do as a matter of course and have done since about my third lesson...and wouldn't have it any other way.
Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work rather than having INOP stickers overs everything and looking like it belongs to the Rodney Trotter School Of Flying - it will put potential students off if they think you are cutting corners by not maintaining aircraft, first impressions count!
However, if there is a U/S sticker on the aircraft or on the e-booking system, this shouldn't surely put potential students off? Its just realistic. Sometimes, you just can't help it if an aircraft is u/s for a long time.
I would put "mentoring" (yeah I know it is a currently trendy term, and a lot of people in the industry disapprove of it) very high up, and in the flying school context this means having experienced pilots as members and actively supporting them
I only have experience of our club, but some of the points raised are so true...a club which is student friendly and welcomes new members, one with a laid back attitude so it doesn't feel like "school". Don't like the idea of this formal homework someone mentioned! PPL students will work hard at home without QFI motivation, the motivation to get the licence is all I certainly need, and am doing everything to get it.
One with great socials and fly-ins where the students are just as much respected members of the club as the experienced pilots.
One where, again as someone said, the student gets stuck into everything...washing the aircraft, pre-flight aircraft cx, checking the ATIS, Wx, NOTAMS, Out Brief, booking out with ATC, fuelling-up after flight, putting the aircraft away if not being used again, closing and locking the Hangar and the Club if the last one out and volunteering for Duty Pilot duties once every three months (a great way to learn Ground procedures).These are all things which I do as a matter of course and have done since about my third lesson...and wouldn't have it any other way.
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If I were doing it over again, I'd want a school where I could sit down with an instructor at the outset and work out a realistic target number of hours in which to complete the PPL. I realise there are many variables involved, but there were a lot of expensive wasted hours in my training.
Proper briefing/de-briefing, not just a few hurried scribbles on the whiteboard or - worse - none at all and an instructor who's out the door for lunch quicker than you can drop a dish of hot lasagna.
I'd also want an instructor with the foresight and manners to call me when lessons are cancelled
Any school willing to teach me how best to use a GPS and modern navigation planning tools (even if only at the most general, introductory level) would also get my vote
Yep, mentoring. Post-PPL you can easily fall into a black hole.
Proper briefing/de-briefing, not just a few hurried scribbles on the whiteboard or - worse - none at all and an instructor who's out the door for lunch quicker than you can drop a dish of hot lasagna.
I'd also want an instructor with the foresight and manners to call me when lessons are cancelled
Any school willing to teach me how best to use a GPS and modern navigation planning tools (even if only at the most general, introductory level) would also get my vote
Yep, mentoring. Post-PPL you can easily fall into a black hole.
Last edited by FlyingLapinou; 7th Jan 2012 at 19:35.
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Simplicity
When I was a student I loved the simplicity of the school:
On the facilities front: telephone booking and being able to book as many slots as I liked into the future, a comfortable reception, and a cafe for pre and post flight coffee, with many people to chat to and bounce ideas off of. A good enough briefing room, with plenty of equipment available to borrow at no extra cost (ELT, spare headsets, life jackets etc). Wet rates, up front or in advance; take off to landing + 10mins (5 either side) easy. A small friendly aerodrome, with little taxy time and choice of runways to prevent cancellations due to crosswinds, or the opposite for crosswind traning, although busy both movement related and social. The latter to gain confidence in and around the circuit.
For the aircraft and operation of: all parked in a place that meant no pulling or pushing about hangars or fences or wherever, maintained on site, and enough aircraft so that down time was minimal (sometimes though we have to accept that an aircraft being unserviceable may have been due to a fellow pilot having a very bad day - and people are more important than aircraft).
Overall pitch up, brief and go fly. The quality of instructor has been over done here, but I'll add that a long drawn out ground brief becomes monotonous and learning stops. I liked the possibility of briefing a simple lesson during the climb up to exercise altitude. Also flying with an instructor that knows flying should be fun is a good thing. Sometimes I think we all need to (safely) do silly things: hovering/flying backwards in high winds, low level etc.
Even after gaining the little scrap of paper this simplicity continues and I enjoy flying from the same place. Having flown from another club also, I know which I prefer. My (ex-)instructor is always happy to chat about doing new things and provide advice or ideas on a better way to do what I plan to. ('ex-' bracketed because they will be my instructor regardless of my qualification or experience until no longer with the school).
KISS: Keep It Simple Stoopid!
GW
On the facilities front: telephone booking and being able to book as many slots as I liked into the future, a comfortable reception, and a cafe for pre and post flight coffee, with many people to chat to and bounce ideas off of. A good enough briefing room, with plenty of equipment available to borrow at no extra cost (ELT, spare headsets, life jackets etc). Wet rates, up front or in advance; take off to landing + 10mins (5 either side) easy. A small friendly aerodrome, with little taxy time and choice of runways to prevent cancellations due to crosswinds, or the opposite for crosswind traning, although busy both movement related and social. The latter to gain confidence in and around the circuit.
For the aircraft and operation of: all parked in a place that meant no pulling or pushing about hangars or fences or wherever, maintained on site, and enough aircraft so that down time was minimal (sometimes though we have to accept that an aircraft being unserviceable may have been due to a fellow pilot having a very bad day - and people are more important than aircraft).
Overall pitch up, brief and go fly. The quality of instructor has been over done here, but I'll add that a long drawn out ground brief becomes monotonous and learning stops. I liked the possibility of briefing a simple lesson during the climb up to exercise altitude. Also flying with an instructor that knows flying should be fun is a good thing. Sometimes I think we all need to (safely) do silly things: hovering/flying backwards in high winds, low level etc.
Even after gaining the little scrap of paper this simplicity continues and I enjoy flying from the same place. Having flown from another club also, I know which I prefer. My (ex-)instructor is always happy to chat about doing new things and provide advice or ideas on a better way to do what I plan to. ('ex-' bracketed because they will be my instructor regardless of my qualification or experience until no longer with the school).
KISS: Keep It Simple Stoopid!
GW
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Club members who treat it as a club
Yet I think what makes a good flying school is the presence of post-learning pilot support that may involve mentoring and/or a referral to one or more home-based flying clubs or groups... as well as the sociable aspects of the school.
Organized day flyouts or week-long vacations which give pilots some time to fly and other times to enjoy their destinations is something that keeps people flying.
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In the UK there has to be a Club with the RTF attached to it.
Some schools its a seperate entity and others its there but run by the school with virtually no input from the members. Some charge a yearly fee(most) others don't (tends to be commercial schools who give you membership until you complete)
Some schools its a seperate entity and others its there but run by the school with virtually no input from the members. Some charge a yearly fee(most) others don't (tends to be commercial schools who give you membership until you complete)
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However, if there is a U/S sticker on the aircraft or on the e-booking system, this shouldn't surely put potential students off? Its just realistic. Sometimes, you just can't help it if an aircraft is u/s for a long time.
Also if week after week when you turn up to fly, the same stickers are there that to me does not say that the owner is taking an active interest in rectifying the issue.
If a new PPL student were to sit in an aircraft and see all the stickers I doubt they would be thinking "its realistic", they would be probably be thinking "Oh dear". Especially if you prices are not 'bargain basement' students will expect what they pay for, not half of it.
Its what drove me away from renting in the end, a good majority of the school fleets were quite frankly knackered!
J.
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Overall pitch up, brief and go fly.... Also flying with an instructor that knows flying should be fun is a good thing. Sometimes I think we all need to (safely) do silly things: hovering/flying backwards in high winds, low level etc.
Also if week after week when you turn up to fly, the same stickers are there that to me does not say that the owner is taking an active interest in rectifying the issue.
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In some instances, no doubt true. However, we had an aircraft u/s from April until about October (that one was actually due to a student having a bad day - namely me!) That was not due to the fact that the club do not care for their aircraft, it was simply down to the Germans not getting on with providing us with the spare parts! So u/s stickers are not a true indication of the club's treatment of the aircraft...
A whole aircraft u/s in a bit different to a piece of equpiment inside being u/s, unfortunately my experience is that the school hasnt fixed it for their own reasons. Dont forget its all about perception as well, especially if you are trying to attract new students/hirers.
A single u/s sticker, yes ok but when multi ones appear that is what creates a bad impression, whatever the underlying reasons are. Unfortunately the kit was u/s at the school I used I needed for what I wanted to do so that led to me buying.
the maintenance team .....Compton Abbas Airfield Home Page
My flying school tells me that older aircraft - c152s and Tomahawks, are in many ways sturdier and better suited to training than anything currently manufactured. Their view is that it's better to have an old aircraft with lots of placards than a new aircraft that's completely unserviceable because of something big such as a broken nosewheel.
If you're a small outfit with only a few aircraft, having £100,000 of loan sitting in the workshop waiting for a part for 6 months and not earning any money would probably close your business down.
I agree that old aircraft aren't always reassuring to look at.
If you're a small outfit with only a few aircraft, having £100,000 of loan sitting in the workshop waiting for a part for 6 months and not earning any money would probably close your business down.
I agree that old aircraft aren't always reassuring to look at.
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....... and that is why we are still stuck in the Dark Ages. Have you ever sat around waiting for a replacement 172 flap runner to be sourced & replaced? Or how about endless trips to maintenance so they can fiddle with a 152's shimmy damper or brake system? Or how about the ever growing list of SBs/ADs that are attached to the 50/100hr check schedule that, in reality, shouldn't be much more than an oil change?
Oh, what I would give for a bit of modern technology that, whilst arguably less robust, can be fixed quickly.
Anyway, back to the question:
It has to be FUN.
Oh, what I would give for a bit of modern technology that, whilst arguably less robust, can be fixed quickly.
Anyway, back to the question:
It has to be FUN.
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Ahhh, individuual aircraft instruments...I agree, if a club/school can't fix them for their own reasons and there are lots of u/s stickers in the cockpit, that is indeed sloppy....
However, in my experience (very limited I admit (!)) even a u/s instrument or tyre will make the entire aircraft u/s. If a club/school took a student flying without for instance an altimeter working...or the static pressure vent blocked, I would start to worry..... It gets the student into sloppy habits in their check walk round...the old adage I work by is "A superior pilot uses their superior knowledge so they don't have to use their superior skills..." In this instance, using ones knowledge (however limited, again I am no expert!) to tell that an aircraft is not airworthy, and therefore does not fly....
However, in my experience (very limited I admit (!)) even a u/s instrument or tyre will make the entire aircraft u/s. If a club/school took a student flying without for instance an altimeter working...or the static pressure vent blocked, I would start to worry..... It gets the student into sloppy habits in their check walk round...the old adage I work by is "A superior pilot uses their superior knowledge so they don't have to use their superior skills..." In this instance, using ones knowledge (however limited, again I am no expert!) to tell that an aircraft is not airworthy, and therefore does not fly....
I've flown in an aeroplane with an under-reading tachometer. As I recall, the first 50 hour check they ordered the part. The 2nd 50 hour check they found they had ordered the wrong part. Eventually of course it got done, but it took a while through no real fault of the school.
It was no biggie but perhaps meant that some of the numbers took longer to stick. I can't see anybody would advocate sending a student on their first solo with a dodgy ASI though.
It was no biggie but perhaps meant that some of the numbers took longer to stick. I can't see anybody would advocate sending a student on their first solo with a dodgy ASI though.