23yo model walks into propeller
every time i preflight any aircraft i have the keys in my hand and know the master is OFF, especially when turning the prop to check the belt.
one may not need to "pull through" to prime the 912 but one is supposed to hand turn the engine a number of times to "gurgle" the oil system. At least, by stopping the engine by grounding the mags you can be more sure that the mag switches are working. Maybe a mag test at the time the mixture is pulled for "lean cutting" your lyconentals would be a good idea.
It is possible to hand prop a 912. One of the BMAA officers did this on a Skyranger I believe, it jumped, mauled his arm and came to rest in a hedge.
see Is it time to fly yet? • View topic - Hand-Starting ΓΆβ
Rans6....
It is possible to hand prop a 912. One of the BMAA officers did this on a Skyranger I believe, it jumped, mauled his arm and came to rest in a hedge.
see Is it time to fly yet? • View topic - Hand-Starting ΓΆβ
Rans6....
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The most interesting point for me in this and the previous thread, is that I don't recall any mention of this kind of issue in my training.
Common sense has always dictated to me that I don't exit the aircraft with the prop turning, and as I always accompany non-pilot pax at all times at a field, the issue of passengers near the prop has never been an issue (and I don't let them near it while they're watching me walk-around either).
However, hot changes (and not to do them) were never mentioned during my PPL training, other than the fact that the instructor leaves the aircraft whilst it's running to send students off on solo detail.
Could this leave the less aware new PPL's more open to making this kind of terrible mistake?
Common sense has always dictated to me that I don't exit the aircraft with the prop turning, and as I always accompany non-pilot pax at all times at a field, the issue of passengers near the prop has never been an issue (and I don't let them near it while they're watching me walk-around either).
However, hot changes (and not to do them) were never mentioned during my PPL training, other than the fact that the instructor leaves the aircraft whilst it's running to send students off on solo detail.
Could this leave the less aware new PPL's more open to making this kind of terrible mistake?
In the days when prop swinging was common I think pilots were much more aware of the inherent dangers - in fact, you had to be "checked out" on prop swinging - this would not be a "one off" but you might do it several times to the satisfaction of the instructor teaching you before you went "solo".
These days, more often than not, you just press the starter button.
I have discovered that most pilots these days don't even understand what "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" between cockpit and outside means.
There is nothing wrong with "running changes" so long as they have been properly briefed and are well supervised. If not it's just far safer to shutdown rather than take any risks.
At the end of the day, it's the pilots who are responsible for their "passengers" safety.
These days, more often than not, you just press the starter button.
I have discovered that most pilots these days don't even understand what "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" between cockpit and outside means.
There is nothing wrong with "running changes" so long as they have been properly briefed and are well supervised. If not it's just far safer to shutdown rather than take any risks.
At the end of the day, it's the pilots who are responsible for their "passengers" safety.
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This thread is addressing the overall issue of propeller safety awareness rather than solely the accident that sparked the discussion. On that note this report, discussed in another thread has some relevance.
Although the accident clearly has a number of causal factors, the single link in the chain that was most within the pilot's power to break, comes down to safe prop handling.
Check, double check and check again, all engine controls, especially the mags before going anywhere near a propeller. Even having done that, treat every prop as live and expect the prop to start on every turn over. Use correct handswinging technique every time you touch a prop, even just for sucking in or the walkaround. I suspect the pilot was very lucky not to be fatally injured in this case.
Props and tail rotors, when running, can often be invisible and inaudible. In certain light conditions the disc simply cannot be seen even if you are looking for it, and with multiple running aircraft on an apron, noise may not provide a specific warning. Passengers ignorant of the risks, distracted and excited, are particularly vulnerable to these risks. I see some horrific bad habits around props on a very regular basis.
Although the accident clearly has a number of causal factors, the single link in the chain that was most within the pilot's power to break, comes down to safe prop handling.
Check, double check and check again, all engine controls, especially the mags before going anywhere near a propeller. Even having done that, treat every prop as live and expect the prop to start on every turn over. Use correct handswinging technique every time you touch a prop, even just for sucking in or the walkaround. I suspect the pilot was very lucky not to be fatally injured in this case.
Props and tail rotors, when running, can often be invisible and inaudible. In certain light conditions the disc simply cannot be seen even if you are looking for it, and with multiple running aircraft on an apron, noise may not provide a specific warning. Passengers ignorant of the risks, distracted and excited, are particularly vulnerable to these risks. I see some horrific bad habits around props on a very regular basis.
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However, hot changes (and not to do them) were never mentioned during my PPL training, other than the fact that the instructor leaves the aircraft whilst it's running to send students off on solo detail.
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I tend to agree with a post further back within this discussion, that if my passenger(s) is/are qualified i.e. other pilot(s), I see no reason not to carry out a running change. Unless of course it is stated within Flying Orders that RCs are not permitted.
Except for PPL training purposes (instructor 'bailing' out) I've never done one and it's unlikely that I'll do one soon. That said if I were to carry out a RC I like to think I'd ensure that all passengers were comprehensively briefed and were aware of the dangers, also perhaps even have a trusted and briefed club member escort people to/from the aeroplane. For all of the effort in organising such an operation it would probably be just as easy to shut down. Thus until I'm forced to negotiate a situation like this I may only speculate on what my actions might be.
Edit: On reflection after posting this I considered my behaviour around aeroplanes. I can't recall walking in front of a row of aeroplanes to get to the one I've booked. I must have done it at some point surely! But usually I walk around the rear of the line (possibly an unconscious self preservation mechanism?). Unless it impossible as the aircraft are sometimes parked facing the club house, in which case I can 'see' which aeroplanes are potentially live and can make some kind of eye contact with someone on board.
All tolled these accident's shouldn't be able to happen, but they seem to crop up rather frequently. I wish everyone involved in one of these types of occurrence a successful recovery, including the psychological states of onlookers/witnesses and the pilots, as well as the subject.
Except for PPL training purposes (instructor 'bailing' out) I've never done one and it's unlikely that I'll do one soon. That said if I were to carry out a RC I like to think I'd ensure that all passengers were comprehensively briefed and were aware of the dangers, also perhaps even have a trusted and briefed club member escort people to/from the aeroplane. For all of the effort in organising such an operation it would probably be just as easy to shut down. Thus until I'm forced to negotiate a situation like this I may only speculate on what my actions might be.
Edit: On reflection after posting this I considered my behaviour around aeroplanes. I can't recall walking in front of a row of aeroplanes to get to the one I've booked. I must have done it at some point surely! But usually I walk around the rear of the line (possibly an unconscious self preservation mechanism?). Unless it impossible as the aircraft are sometimes parked facing the club house, in which case I can 'see' which aeroplanes are potentially live and can make some kind of eye contact with someone on board.
All tolled these accident's shouldn't be able to happen, but they seem to crop up rather frequently. I wish everyone involved in one of these types of occurrence a successful recovery, including the psychological states of onlookers/witnesses and the pilots, as well as the subject.
Last edited by GeeWhizz; 10th Dec 2011 at 19:08.
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I've done running changes on Tiger Moths (pax seat at front) and anybody who's been to Duxford on a day when the Tiger / Rapide guys are flying must have seen them happen. The geography of the a/c with the longish nose, steep wing lateral gradient as you are standing on it (so you would fall backwards), the propwash trying to blow you off the wing, and the flying wires in the way, combined with the pilot having his hand on the mag switches and an additional set of mag switches within reach, make it tolerably safe IMO.
I agree apart from one thing - pulling a/c by the prop. I have even done this on an a/c that was known to have a live mag. Is this actually very unsafe and am I an idiot? Viewpoints appreciated 
I cringe when I see people handling propellers casually, putting arms and necks through the discs on walkarounds, pull aircraft by the blades, curl fingers around the trailing edge when hand-swinging or sucking in, stand or walk too close to props and tail rotors
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I was referring to Rotax engines, which are routinely hand-cranked during the pre-flight checks, to get a meaningful reading of the oil quantity.
good finish, I cannot think of a reason why a warm Rotax, with fuel and mags On should not start if hand-pulled. I'm certainly not going to try!
good finish, I cannot think of a reason why a warm Rotax, with fuel and mags On should not start if hand-pulled. I'm certainly not going to try!
All our planes are Rotax 912S and 914 powered.
Hand cranking is necessary to get the oil-gurgle.
This is not dangerous with the Master switch off, magnetos off and a cold engine, right? Is it dangerous with a warm engine?
Is it dangerous to move a plane by pulling the prop blades?
Surely not!??
###Ultra Long Hauler###
there is two points to note in this discussion.
1) The Rotax units are all (normally!) equipped with electric starters. Given a decent battery, good heavy cabling and a following wind they will turn over at a good rate and start well. The mags will not even think about creating sparks at the speed used for the "oil gurgle" activity.
2) Many Lyconentals have an impulsing mechanism which is designed to give a good healthy spark at very slow engine rpm and thus enable easier hand prop starting or electric starting if the battery is below par.
So the level of danger at the noisy end is related to the type of engine you have, up to the point that it starts running and then all are dangerous.
Also, I note, a number of posters saying that they always make sure that the master switch is off before venturing near their propellers. Why? the master has absolutely no influence over the ability of the mags to generate sparks or the engine to run. The only difference is that having the master key in your pocket will stop a naughty passenger operating the electric starter.
Rans6.....
1) The Rotax units are all (normally!) equipped with electric starters. Given a decent battery, good heavy cabling and a following wind they will turn over at a good rate and start well. The mags will not even think about creating sparks at the speed used for the "oil gurgle" activity.
2) Many Lyconentals have an impulsing mechanism which is designed to give a good healthy spark at very slow engine rpm and thus enable easier hand prop starting or electric starting if the battery is below par.
So the level of danger at the noisy end is related to the type of engine you have, up to the point that it starts running and then all are dangerous.
Also, I note, a number of posters saying that they always make sure that the master switch is off before venturing near their propellers. Why? the master has absolutely no influence over the ability of the mags to generate sparks or the engine to run. The only difference is that having the master key in your pocket will stop a naughty passenger operating the electric starter.
Rans6.....
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Originally Posted by Booglebox
I agree apart from one thing - pulling a/c by the prop. I have even done this on an a/c that was known to have a live mag. Is this actually very unsafe and am I an idiot? Viewpoints appreciated
Originally Posted by Ultra long hauler
Is it dangerous to move a plane by pulling the prop blades?
Surely not!??
Surely not!??
When I pull, I grasp the leading edges of the propeller, so that if the prop does turn a little bit, it always turns backwards - so there's no chance of it firing (even if live). What are other people's thoughts?
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My thoughts:
You'll probably be fine. Probably. However you could definitely be fine (or as near as dammit) by treating the prop with the discipline that I talked about earlier. By becoming too relaxed about handling props, especially when it is avoidable, you are choosing to leave open a hole in the flight safety swiss cheese that you could easily have filled.
As with many things in flying, it is not the normal average day when you're going to get bitten - it'll be the day when one little, possibly insidious, thing goes wrong and because you haven't pre-empted that risk or left a safety margin, the little problem develops into an accident.
Incidentally with impulse mags you do not really need to generate an RPM to fire the engine. When the mag swings over it will generate sufficient spark even if the prop itself is virtually stationary.
You'll probably be fine. Probably. However you could definitely be fine (or as near as dammit) by treating the prop with the discipline that I talked about earlier. By becoming too relaxed about handling props, especially when it is avoidable, you are choosing to leave open a hole in the flight safety swiss cheese that you could easily have filled.
As with many things in flying, it is not the normal average day when you're going to get bitten - it'll be the day when one little, possibly insidious, thing goes wrong and because you haven't pre-empted that risk or left a safety margin, the little problem develops into an accident.
Incidentally with impulse mags you do not really need to generate an RPM to fire the engine. When the mag swings over it will generate sufficient spark even if the prop itself is virtually stationary.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 11th Dec 2011 at 20:15. Reason: sp
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Sadly I don't think anybody is immune from making this fatal mistake.
I am pretty forgetful myself, and I have a 15 year old aviation-mad son who is more than capable of walking into a prop while dreaming about his latest FPV plane.
I am pretty forgetful myself, and I have a 15 year old aviation-mad son who is more than capable of walking into a prop while dreaming about his latest FPV plane.
"Also, I note, a number of posters saying that they always make sure that the master switch is off before venturing near their propellers."
I've asked for confirmation the master was off before helping someone by handpropping. It avoids the possibility of mags on with a key going to start.
I've asked for confirmation the master was off before helping someone by handpropping. It avoids the possibility of mags on with a key going to start.