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To IMC or Not To IMC...

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To IMC or Not To IMC...

Old 3rd Dec 2011, 05:39
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So, realistically, what kind of timescale are we talking to get your IMCR ?

If it finishes in April surely it'll be a struggle ?

Last edited by 742-xx; 3rd Dec 2011 at 06:20.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 07:13
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It depends a lot on how often you fly.

The average TT is ~ 20 hours.

IMHO, flying a minimum once a week is highly desirable otherwise one just goes rusty.

You can do 20hrs between now and April, easily.

The conditions are not required to be VFR, which helps. For example I have been doing the FAA IR to JAA IR conversion, at an airport which has an 800ft decision height, and have so far done ~16hrs (only the 170A and the test to do now), and flying 2x a week I have not lost a single lesson due to weather. Most of the flights were in non-VFR conditions, and most in some rain.

But what has helped a lot is the unusually warm temperatures we are getting. It is was below zero at a few thousand feet, extended flight in IMC is a no-no in a spamcan.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 08:22
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Some more clarification from the CAA regarding the IMCR:

1. Pilots may continue training for the IMCR for as long as they wish.
2. The IMCR may be included in a JAR-FCL or old-style UK PPL until 30 Jun 2012.
3. The IMCR may be included in a supplementary United Kingdom PPL after 30 Jun 2012.
4. An IMCR may be used on EASA and non-EASA aeroplanes until Apr 2015 (for private purposes).
5. An IMCR may be used on non-EASA aeroplanes indefinitely.
6. The precise method for grandfathering existing IMCR privileges onto EASA part-FCL licences is as yet unknown, as is the cut-off date for such grandfathering.
7. Grandfathered IMC privileges on EASA part-FCL licences may be used on both EASA and non-EASA aeroplanes indefintely.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 11:08
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Whilst flight is in either simulated IMC or real IMc, I know of very few instructors who will actually instruct if the cloudbase isn't 1500ft at least for an IMC rating.

I tend to agree with this also. Whilst I did my intense course in just 5 days inlcuding the exam, there was 1 day where the cloud was a solid 900ft, tops of 2300ft. I queried why we wouldn't train in this as I was likely to take off in said conditions. It was down to instructor opinion that should the engine fail and you are in IMC / on top and have to descend through a solid layer of cloud to only 900ft, you have perhaps less than 60 secs to select a suitable landing place. You may end up on the top of a congested city, perhaps terrain depending if you had a full instrument failure / disorientation.

If it was broken / scattered 900ft, so you could see something below he was quite happy.

Just worth pointing out that whilst we, who may fly in said conditions, the OP FTO may have their own limits which may hinder training.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 11:16
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You also need to consider that icing is an instructor concern (in a/c not approved for icing conditions) at this time of year too-better to descend out of cloud than to fall out of it.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 11:39
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You may end up on the top of a congested city, perhaps terrain depending if you had a full instrument failure / disorientation.
Not if you have a half decent GPS, and nobody should be doing IFR (and IMHO VFR nav too) without at least the instructor having a GPS running constantly.

Icing conditions do remain a problem in the winter for even low altitude flight, but in most conditions of 900ft base and 2300ft tops, stratus, there is very unlikely to be be ice in there. Much depends on the surface temperature of course; if it is say +3C or warmer, you have an obvious escape route. I am a whole lot more fussy about icing conditions if the surface is freezing too.

But given the above cloud example, it is likely to be full of holes, and with blue sky above. Perfect conditions for teaching IFR nav, above it. The other possibility is a fairly typical winter high pressure situation where it is just a well defined, thin but uniform layer.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 12:52
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Icing is much more of a problem in SC than status
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 13:34
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Any kind of convective cloud is bad news for structural ice, but the by far worst ice encounter I have ever had was in NS, base 1500ft and smooth, tops 4000ft and smooth, all very smooth with zero turbulence, SFC temp +3C, temp in cloud at 3700ft -5C, 30mm of clear+rime collected in 5-10 mins. Max engine power (TKS deiced prop) i.e. 250HP and could not climb. Vs rose to about 100kt and that was also the max speed achievable in level flight.

I got out of there fairly quick but I was content to give it a go for the extra few mins after I spotted it (I watch for ice constantly in IMC below 0C, obviously) because I knew the easy escape route was by descent.

No control problems provided one kept the speed up, preferably in a descent at 120kt

That established the absolute limit for the aircraft.

Interestingly, climb or descent through the same layer, 1000fpm, collected under 5mm, which hardly matters on the TB.

Most pilots will tell of similar stories, but not openly.

Of course nobody has ever done it in a PA28... and 1mm will definitely kill you

Ice is very hazardous but knowledge is better than ignorance or blind fear.
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 13:40
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IO540,

I thought it was discouraged for pilots (students) to rely on a none-certified device? For sure, when I fly I have both my iPad 2 available in the back, and my 795 on the yoke but for instructional purposes, flying/intercepting a radial, tracking an NDB etc are far better done without a GPS *initially*.

I would also have thought that an instructor in the local flying ground would know the local VOR's and 'safe' radials to work to/from for the basis of teaching climbing/descending in IMC, maneuvering etc but alas no, not a single instructor who I ever flew with in IMC (4 in total, 2 for training and 2 personal checkrides for ensuring I'm doing nothing dangerous several hours into solo IFR flying) have ever taken a GPS with them.

But I totally agree with your other point, icing conditions are more a concern this time of year. I've experienced myself being in the freezing level and climbing through it and seeing +6 degrees on top, but in the descent you obviously get a supercold shell, and descending through moist air is always going to a factor.

I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions. Not experienced it myself yet - most of my descents have been controlled between 500fpm - 800fpm and nothing more when breaking into VMC. I guess time will tell ...
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Old 3rd Dec 2011, 14:02
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I thought it was discouraged for pilots (students) to rely on a none-certified device?
Discouraged by some of the ageing ex RAF jolly good chaps who went to the CAA to continue their pension contributions

No legal basis for that at all.

For sure, when I fly I have both my iPad 2 available in the back, and my 795 on the yoke but for instructional purposes, flying/intercepting a radial, tracking an NDB etc are far better done without a GPS *initially*.
Yes, for training purposes, and then the instructor should use the best tools available to make sure they don't both get lost. Look up that recent CFIT somewhere in or near Wales, for example. That was a dual instructional flight. Astonishingly they both survived.
I would also have thought that an instructor in the local flying ground would know the local VOR's and 'safe' radials to work to/from for the basis of teaching climbing/descending in IMC, maneuvering etc but alas no, not a single instructor who I ever flew with in IMC (4 in total, 2 for training and 2 personal checkrides for ensuring I'm doing nothing dangerous several hours into solo IFR flying) have ever taken a GPS with them.
Their choice. But then very few instructors ever go past the nearest crease in the chart.
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 13:24
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Quote:

The IMCR may be included in a supplementary United Kingdom PPL after 30 Jun 2012.

So, does that mean Jun 2012 is the deadline for an existing JAR PPL?
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 14:49
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Currently, after 30 Jun 2012 you will need to obtain a supplementary United Kingdom PPL (paperwork exercise) in which to include the IMCR if you haven't included it in a JAR-FCL PPL before that date.
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 15:19
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions.
Was that meant to be tongue-in-cheek? Almost cruise speed in your PA28 is what-90kts? I've picked up airframe icing descending through cloud in a Saratoga at IAS 180kts. So we know that concorde got warm from friction, flying at Mach 2, but isn't is just wind chill at our kind of speeds?
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 17:40
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I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions.
Let's say you're cruising at FL50 at ISA-5°C. The static air temperature would therefore be +0.1°C. According to a very handy application which I use, the total air temperature at 105KIAS will be about +1.7°C; if you increased speed to 150KIAS it would be +3.5°C and at 180KIAS it would be +4.9°C.

So I suppose that a little ice formed at +0.1°C on the leading edge might be persuaded to melt and detach with an increase to 180KIAS - the vibration and buffeting of the average spamcan might also help to shake it loose. On the other hand, of course TAT is really only accurate at the stagnation point, so that nicely melted ice might simply dribble back and freeze again on a cold-soaked aerofoil...??
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 21:18
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I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions.
When I saw this posted I was itching to respond too, until I realized I don't have enough data. But my gut feeling told me that it was wildly inaccurate.

As far as I know, water can exist in supercooled, liquid form, up to -15C. So in order to be safe from icing the friction has to generate at least 15C of heat. As far as I know, that only happens if you get into the 500 knot+ region. In other words: airliners that routinely fly at mach 0.8 or thereabouts. Not in the spamcans we generally fly in this forum.

But I'd be very interested in knowing the calculations behind what Beagle wrote, above. It's not something that was covered in my PPL theory, at least.

Anyway, supporting my case, if you look at propellors of de-iced aircraft you'll find that the inner half or third is heated or TKS de-iced. Only the outermost half or two thirds is not de-iced. Assuming that the tips rotate at mach 0.8 or thereabouts (which is the normal propellor limit - above this you will get mach effects which leads to a reduction in efficiency, and a significant increase in noise), that means that anything below mach 0.27 or thereabouts needs to be forcibly de-iced, and cannot be safe from icing by friction effects alone.
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Old 4th Dec 2011, 21:53
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As far as I know, water can exist in supercooled, liquid form, up to -15C.
About -50C actually. If you cool it quick enough (not in any conditions you would find while flying) you can get it down to about -100C.
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 12:35
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Hi

pboyall - can you verify your quote ---

"2. The IMCR may be included in a JAR-FCL or old-style UK PPL until 30 Jun 2012"

I too have been exploring the option to take the IMCR in Florida (for various personal reasons...) and have correspondance from the CAA that, after several explicit questions, eventually confirms that the latest date for the CAA to recieve your IMCR application is approximately 10 working days before the 8th April deadline. In my estimation, this makes the latest possible start date for the training about mid March (or a v little later if you want to push it...).

I have a JAR-FCL (obtained at the same Florida school) and if there are a few months extra that would be great, but as of correspondance from the CAA dated 7th October 2011, the deadline is still 8/4/2012, and I am currently planning on that basis.

Is the admin extension for license issue being confused with the (unchanged) 8/4/2012 deadline ?
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 12:41
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onebounce - the original post was from BEagle, pboyall was just replying to it.

I'm in a similar boat, desperate to get the IMCR done before the deadline but stuffed with work commitments it looks like. If there's an extra 2 months, I'm sorted!

BEagle - is there a link/reference for those dates you could provide?

Also, what is a "supplementary UK PPL"? Or does that just mean an old style CAA non-expiring PPL?
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 14:26
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The UK CAA will re-introduce the national 'lifetime' PPL (and CPL and ATPL) for use on UK-registered Annexe II aircraft. It will continue to be possible to add an IMC rating to these licences but not to an EASA licence. When UK issued JAA licences are re-issued as EASA licences, any non-EASA ratings, such as the IMC will be removed. It is also worth noting that any other ratings (e.g. class or type ratings) that are not current at the time of re-issue will not be transferred to the new licence.
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Old 5th Dec 2011, 17:20
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There seems to be quite a few definitive answers on this thread re IMC they seem to make sense but having just converted my professional license to JAR(I have a lifetime CAA PPL circa 1984 as well) Im concerned, where are the answers sourced from or are they an interpretation of what may happen or have I missed a docment issue from the powers to be as at end of last week my understanding from aopa and caa nothing confirmed as yet Thanks
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