Phasing out VOR's
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Phasing out VOR's
Excuse my apparent ignorance. A pilot friend of mine told me last night that VOR's are being phased out in two or three years. and here I am doing my IMC! Is this right, what will replace them , will LHR still stack over LAM ( and therefore my house)?
Isn't it rather the NDB's that are being phased out?
Over here, we got a couple of new VOR's over the last decades (FLO was the latest, if memory serves), but only fewer and fewer NDB's (WW desactivated a year or two ago, BRUNO longer).
Over here, we got a couple of new VOR's over the last decades (FLO was the latest, if memory serves), but only fewer and fewer NDB's (WW desactivated a year or two ago, BRUNO longer).
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Most of the VOR's in the UK are owned and operated by NATS. They are 1960's technology for which spare parts are no longer available and any repairs have to be constructed from scratch.
Advances in navigation have rendered many ground based facilities as unnecessary. NATS had planned to turn off the vast majority of UK VOR's by 2015 but that timescale appears to be slipping (as always happens with NATS target dates). But they will be withdrawn in the next several years.
Advances in navigation have rendered many ground based facilities as unnecessary. NATS had planned to turn off the vast majority of UK VOR's by 2015 but that timescale appears to be slipping (as always happens with NATS target dates). But they will be withdrawn in the next several years.
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For some reason it just leaves me wondering how robust the gps system is in the event of a period of extreme solar activity and how the system would cope during a period of outage.
Inertial navigation and radar vectoring will presumably save the day but some ga pilots could be struggling.
Inertial navigation and radar vectoring will presumably save the day but some ga pilots could be struggling.
I went to a lecture the other day by an American designer of GNSS approaches who admitted they'd had problems in the USA with GPS jammers around major airports that passed close to major roads. Many american truckers are using GPS jammers to stop themselves being tracked.
I just looked on eBay - well under 20 quid for a GPS jammer from Hong Kong !
The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.
So, me, I like the option of ILS, VOR and even NDB approaches. The more options, the more chance that something hasn't been mucked about by some arsehole who doesn't care about anybody else so long as he can avoid his truck being tracked. (Or does care, and wants to cause trouble!).
G
N.B. The IMC also qualifies you to fly GNSS approaches using a panel mounted GPS. They're becoming more common in the UK and are almost universal in North America. Yes, I know you can't use your IMC in North America.
I just looked on eBay - well under 20 quid for a GPS jammer from Hong Kong !
The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.
So, me, I like the option of ILS, VOR and even NDB approaches. The more options, the more chance that something hasn't been mucked about by some arsehole who doesn't care about anybody else so long as he can avoid his truck being tracked. (Or does care, and wants to cause trouble!).
G
N.B. The IMC also qualifies you to fly GNSS approaches using a panel mounted GPS. They're becoming more common in the UK and are almost universal in North America. Yes, I know you can't use your IMC in North America.
The same lecturer told us that it's fairly straightforward to build a GPS jammer with a 50nm range.
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I miss the Four Course Range. That continuous tone was so soothing....
Low-frequency radio range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In my previous life....
Low-frequency radio range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In my previous life....
See this
GPS jamming: No jam tomorrow | The Economist
GPS jamming: No jam tomorrow | The Economist
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I had put a diagram up of the circuit, maybe a bit silly.
Just a simple google search will pull up a raft of hits on designs. They are also linked in to jamming mobile phones.
They are good for about 1000ft on a 45mm antenna. I doubt it would have the same effect on an aircraft because the hull would be shielding the aircraft antenna. But low down or with a hill next to the approach it could get you I suppose. If they could get line of sight to the top of the aircraft.
There used to be one on the Isle of White in the solent that used to sometimes kick in but it never really affected aircraft on approach as we were on vectors by that point. I presumed it was someone yacht racing in the solent trying to stuff up other racers and not anyone out trying to get aircraft.
Just a simple google search will pull up a raft of hits on designs. They are also linked in to jamming mobile phones.
They are good for about 1000ft on a 45mm antenna. I doubt it would have the same effect on an aircraft because the hull would be shielding the aircraft antenna. But low down or with a hill next to the approach it could get you I suppose. If they could get line of sight to the top of the aircraft.
There used to be one on the Isle of White in the solent that used to sometimes kick in but it never really affected aircraft on approach as we were on vectors by that point. I presumed it was someone yacht racing in the solent trying to stuff up other racers and not anyone out trying to get aircraft.
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What next ?
The NDB's are disappearing and we are soon to see the same happening to the VOR's but it seems to me that the future is bleak for GA with IFR navigation all being done by GPS.
Some might say that with the European GPS system we have two systems available however both are easy to attack and a ground based navigation system is required so as most ILS systems have a DME attached it would seem like a good idea to do as the airlines have and mix DME data into the navigation plot. Most modern FMC system have this GPS, DME mix ( the B737 NG has five DME's three of them permanently attached to the FMC).
It would seem to me that the answer is for someone to make a DME/GPS interface that can feed the multi DME position into the aircrafts GPS unit, the pilot would navigate in exactly the same way as when using a GPS the only difference being that the position of the aircraft is determined by a mix of GPS & or DME data. The loss of GPS or DME data would not effect the navigation in any way.
OH !! It slipped my mind such a unit was available to the GA pilot but we were all to obsessed with the new and cheap GPS units to see the advantages and robustness of the multi-sensor navigation system, NARCO remember them? Made a thing called the STARNAV it had within the box GPS, VOR & ILS but also connected to DME and used a mix of GPS, VOR & DME to fix the aircrafts position and you could also feed a remote LORAN into the mix!
It would seem to me to be time to revisit the NARCO STARNAV concept to provide a more robust GA navigation system, it should not be to hard to do, I would think that a remote double DME unit could feed position data into the curent crop of GPS units via the data ports and most of us would not even know it would be fitted!
Some might say that with the European GPS system we have two systems available however both are easy to attack and a ground based navigation system is required so as most ILS systems have a DME attached it would seem like a good idea to do as the airlines have and mix DME data into the navigation plot. Most modern FMC system have this GPS, DME mix ( the B737 NG has five DME's three of them permanently attached to the FMC).
It would seem to me that the answer is for someone to make a DME/GPS interface that can feed the multi DME position into the aircrafts GPS unit, the pilot would navigate in exactly the same way as when using a GPS the only difference being that the position of the aircraft is determined by a mix of GPS & or DME data. The loss of GPS or DME data would not effect the navigation in any way.
OH !! It slipped my mind such a unit was available to the GA pilot but we were all to obsessed with the new and cheap GPS units to see the advantages and robustness of the multi-sensor navigation system, NARCO remember them? Made a thing called the STARNAV it had within the box GPS, VOR & ILS but also connected to DME and used a mix of GPS, VOR & DME to fix the aircrafts position and you could also feed a remote LORAN into the mix!
It would seem to me to be time to revisit the NARCO STARNAV concept to provide a more robust GA navigation system, it should not be to hard to do, I would think that a remote double DME unit could feed position data into the curent crop of GPS units via the data ports and most of us would not even know it would be fitted!
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But we already have a sparse scattering of VORs? Take an IFR flight over Europe and how many existing intersections /waypoints sit on top of a VOR?
I can well remember flying a 1991 Citation 2 with glass from Nice to gatwick! the screens went black. It took a few hundred miles before we managed to get everything up and running.
I was given direct to a VOR some 200 nm away missing out scores of VOR less intersections.
I cannot see a time where VOR/DME will go completely especially in terminal areas but we already have a situation where they are more sparse.
Pace
I can well remember flying a 1991 Citation 2 with glass from Nice to gatwick! the screens went black. It took a few hundred miles before we managed to get everything up and running.
I was given direct to a VOR some 200 nm away missing out scores of VOR less intersections.
I cannot see a time where VOR/DME will go completely especially in terminal areas but we already have a situation where they are more sparse.
Pace
Amazing how far you pick up indications at FL370Join Date: May 2001
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I reckon you would have to be above 280 to get anything. using 1.25x sqr(alt difference)
well outside the DOC though.
Must of been fun though an hour on standby instruments I have only had the screens go black after we had finished the star on vectors.
well outside the DOC though.
Must of been fun though an hour on standby instruments I have only had the screens go black after we had finished the star on vectors.
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The sqr() formula fails for long distances because the omnidirectional pattern square law attenuation takes over the earth's surface curvature as the dominating factor.
I don't think you will pick up a VOR at 200nm, with the flag not showing, on a properly calibrated VOR receiver.
Same with DME.
I have asked old airline pilots how they used to do it, pre-RNAV. They used to fly headings. It worked because it is kind of hard to miss Spain when flying say 190 (or whatever it is) from the UK
Then they would pick up a VOR somewhere... But you can't do that anymore. Any apparent loss of precision nav today, and ATC are onto you.
There are now of the shelf inertial nav (fibre optic gyro) products which are directly usable with any moving map device that has an NMEA input, but I cannot see anything appearing for less than £20k, and that is a "portable" unit. A certified unit would be a lot more.
I don't think you will pick up a VOR at 200nm, with the flag not showing, on a properly calibrated VOR receiver.
Same with DME.
I have asked old airline pilots how they used to do it, pre-RNAV. They used to fly headings. It worked because it is kind of hard to miss Spain when flying say 190 (or whatever it is) from the UK
Then they would pick up a VOR somewhere... But you can't do that anymore. Any apparent loss of precision nav today, and ATC are onto you.There are now of the shelf inertial nav (fibre optic gyro) products which are directly usable with any moving map device that has an NMEA input, but I cannot see anything appearing for less than £20k, and that is a "portable" unit. A certified unit would be a lot more.
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10540
Practically you will take a heading and wait for the thing to come in then rectify the course but we were given a direct to the VOR which was 200 NM away after explaining the black screen problem.
It must have been about 170 NM from memory when the thing started coming alive.
I cannot remember precisely as I was throttling the first officer at the time who had caused the problem
not fun at night loosing the screens especially with all the STARS into Gatwick ahead.
Pace
Practically you will take a heading and wait for the thing to come in then rectify the course but we were given a direct to the VOR which was 200 NM away after explaining the black screen problem.
It must have been about 170 NM from memory when the thing started coming alive.
I cannot remember precisely as I was throttling the first officer at the time who had caused the problem
not fun at night loosing the screens especially with all the STARS into Gatwick ahead.Pace