Why don't people listen to the radio?

[englishal]

I am approaching from the SE for rwy 22 RH and call 10 miles out (AG radio only). So I elect to join cross wind. One is departing and according to his RT going to the west and I can fit into the circuit without problem. I see him and there won't be a conflict, the one on final and one on base are no factor. I call again 2 miles out really just so has some situational awareness, he is upwind of the numbers by now. I call joining crosswind as I am now concerned as he has turned crosswind and is now continuing to turn towards the airfield. I hear his RT saying "xyz radio, any problem with me departing overhead the airfield?" I now call again saying I am on crosswind and about to turn downwind....the gap is closing rapidly now. AG now say to this pilot "did you copy that last transmission" to which there is no reply. I turn downwind and drop my alt by a few hundred feet and call on the RT "downwind with a tomahawk just off my left wing and about to pass just over the top of me.

I have no idea if he even saw me but the RT should have been enough for him to know I was there. Why don't people listen out and even talk to avoid conflicts like this? Had he announced earlier he wanted to depart via the overhead (which would have been a bit odd considering he was going west) then I would have adjusted my join.

[ShyTorque]

Incompetence is probably one reason but goodness knows why so many folk don't listen and react to the radio, especially dangerous in the circuit.

Pilots in Class G who ask for an ATC service from a LARS unit then immediately fail to listen out, causing the ATCO to make repeated calls to them (and peeing off everyone else on frequency), never ceases to amaze me. I really don't know how ATCOs keep their patience at times.

(Golf Cloth Ears!! My service terminates, Squawk 7000, contact your en route frequency......).

[The500man]

Although he could've been clearer about his intentions, since you were joining the circuit and he was in it, doesn't that mean he has right of way? When he made his call about departing overhead, I think I would have either completed an orbit or extended my crosswind leg diagonally upwind keeping him in sight before turning downwind. Just my thoughts though.

Pilots in Class G who ask for an ATC service from a LARS unit then immediately fail to listen out, causing the ATCO to make repeated calls to them (and peeing off everyone else on frequency), never ceases to amaze me.

Trouble is it can be hard to hear if you are doing something other than straight and level-ish!

[englishal]

To widen out behind him would have meant turning into him, head to head to pass him and as I didn't really have a clue what he was doing would have been extremely dangerous. He seemed completely oblivious to me.

[2 sheds]

The500man

since you were joining the circuit and he was in it, doesn't that mean he has right of way?

How do you make that out?

2 s

[The500man]

Okay when you say crosswind do you mean over the upwind numbers? Which to me is a downwind join from the dead side. To me crosswind is where you would turn crosswind if you were taking off, so he shouldn't have been on your left, unless he was dicking around. I have a bad feeling about where this thread might be going!

Edit 1: Just to explain where I'm coming from, when I used to fly at Biggin, I was always given "report 3/5 miles dead side for a downwind join", which involved flying over the upwind numbers from the dead side and turning downwind. Why don't they say join crosswind if that's where crosswind is meant to be?

Nobody died though so the outcome was okay!

Edit 2:

How do you make that out?

2 s, I seem to remember being told this at some point, or maybe instead of having right of way it was just to be polite and not cut in front. Either way you're meant to sequence with traffic already in aren't you? That's also why I included the question mark rather than stating it as a fact.

[salmabambi]

Ok ..... your downwind join should have been by crossing over the far numbers -- standard decending dead side to down wind join arriving at circuit height over the numbers - as others have correctly mentioned - on a crosswind leg ... but not "crosswind" as you call it. Crosswind will be farther out in the pattern ....generally -- "comence climbing turn to crosswind after departure at 500 feet" but in reality this should put you quite away from the end of the runway - the actual Crosswind possition -- the old 45 degree angle rule in the circuit putting the end of the runway between wing and fuselage in this case when looking back from crosswind. The other aircraft departing the circuit from the downwind leg should have been climbing in the downwind direction - continuing his climb from crosswind .... so not as to conflict with aircraft "downwind to land" and therefore putting himself above circuit traffic.

Trouble is soooooo many people cut the corners in the circuit - especially in slow aircraft and microlites --- had it last saturday while flying a Lance ... told late downwind number one to land .. only to hear a call from a microlite that he was turning left base for final !!!!! ... when challenged he thought the proper circuit was too long for him and cut inside it !!!!. Resulting in a go around for me. TW*T.

Basically you should have had the other aircraft on your RIGHT .. while you entered the circuit maintaining circuit height .... he on the other hand should be climbing above circuit height while heading downwind so he can depart overhead the airfield ... above circuit height.

You must from your own view point work out where you all were and what lessons can be learnt.

[Whopity]

Trouble is soooooo many people cut the corners in the circuit - especially in slow aircraft and microlites

No, they are flying the correct circuit for their aircraft. A circuit is not a line drawn on a map and when operating different types at different speeds, circuit compatibility becomes a major problem, especially when the guy in a fast aircraft thinks he is right and everyone else wrong.

[Mark1234]

Drifting the thread a bit (nothing to do with englishal's lance), What is a 'slow' and what is a 'fast' aircraft?

I strongly suspect a lance can fly downwind at (say) 80 kts, perhaps with some flap, and I suspect most 3-axis type microlights can go quicker if they try. (I have no experience of flexwing).

Common sense would suggest we try to fit in with each other. If you're not pretending to be a 747, you can configure and pick your speed whenever appropriate. The microlight with a lance up it's chuff doesn't need to slow down until (possibly fairly late) final, the lance doesn't have to fly flat out downwind.

I was taught to alter speed to fit in. Always seemed more practical to me than have everyone heading all over the place / off downwind to ensure spacing. Makes spotting traffic much easier too.

[mad_jock]

Seems to me that there was a chance of a collision. So file an Airprox.

[RTN11]

Basically you should have had the other aircraft on your RIGHT .. while you entered the circuit maintaining circuit height .... he on the other hand should be climbing above circuit height while heading downwind so he can depart overhead the airfield ... above circuit height.

Since it was 22 with a right hand circuit, he should have been on your LEFT.

But, as stated, anyone would expect him to keep climbing up to his cruise alt, well above circuit height. At least you were visual with him and took avoiding action. If he really went above you at just a couple of hundred feet file an airprox so we can all learn from the analysis.

UK Airprox Board

[Whopity]

I was taught to alter speed to fit in

Not the safest thing to do, increasing drag, whilst decreasing lookout and controllability! Microlights fly at about 55 Kts, fitting in with them is not a realistic option for most 90+ Kt aircraft, so multiple mixed speeds is not going to be very efficient. If you can't fit in, Go Around and reposition, you can do it from anywhere in the circuit and its invariably the most efficient way to obtain spacing.

file an airprox so we can all learn from the analysis.

I tried that once, when a Pawnee with a cable filled the window. We learned nothing that I didn't already know!

[mad_jock]

I will admit that the aprox doesn't really do anything in a singular case. But it does add to the national statistics. Lets face it over the last few years we have had unfortunately rather alot of fatalities in the circuit. I am presuming that there are heaps of close calls which nobody is reporting. And there isn't much point only you knowing what happened. I use airprox's as case studys.

And in this case apart from anything else it will mean that the other aircraft will be asked to submit a airprox form as well which may induce them to listen out on the RT a bit more closely.

[Whopity]

which may induce them to listen out on the RT a bit more closely.

How many pilots report entering and leaving an ATZ as required by Rule 45

(c) if the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground,
communicate his position and height to the air traffic control unit, the flight
information service unit or the air/ground communication service at the
aerodrome (as the case may be) on entering the zone and immediately prior to
leaving it.

That might keep circuits within the ATZ.

[salmabambi]

No, they are flying the correct circuit for their aircraft. A circuit is not a line drawn on a map and when operating different types at different speeds, circuit compatibility becomes a major problem, especially when the guy in a fast aircraft thinks he is right and everyone else wrong.

So now we are to have multiple for circuit patterns for differnt classes of aircraft !!!!!!!!

Do we start with old timers cutting inside microlites who can cut inside single engine aircraft that can achive 80knots who then can cut inside single engined aircraft that can fly at 110 knots who can cut inside twins .... are you insane ????. God help anyone with something more exotic ... they will be "going round" all day while everyone and their dog cuts in front !!!!.

Perhaps .... using your logic we should also introduce different circuit heights for the poor little dears that cannot climb as quickly as others and really mess things up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spacing and good airmanship are the key to correct circuit pattern flying ....looking out to where you expect an aircraft to be not trying to spot some idiot cutting corners and flying his own pattern that suits them. If ATC give you " Number one to land " then you should expect to be number one to land ..... not number 2 or 3 because someone thinks the standard circuit pattern is too long for them and cut in front .

I should also mention that at the time I had a very well known and highly experienced examiner with me who concured with my view completly ... indeed even got on the radio to give the other pilot a bit of a licking !!!

I also object to your underhand impication of "elitism" as you seem to imply with regard to your comment regarding " fast " aircraft. Safety in the circuit is paramount. If you are catching the aircraft in front then you can either slow or extend for spacing - remaining in circuit order ... if you are in a slow aircraft then you should be expected to maintain a reasonable circuit speed not cut in any old way to suit yourself .... and use the excuse that I am flying a slower aircraft so cannot comply. I am not sure what type you fly -- I suspect a Microlite of some sort -- as pilots of such types always seem to knock anyone with something up front that can pull you along at a reasonable speed, have the ablity of actually going somewhere and involves a certain level of piloting skill !!. Personally I do not care what you fly .... indeed microlites have kept many an airfield open that may have otherwise closed ... but I also have the right to operate -- and operate safely -- whatever type of aircraft I wish. I fly the Lance .... a rental ... because I can travel a reasonable distance, with a reasonable load ( 6 up ) for a reasonable outlay.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So now we are to have multiple for circuit patterns for differnt classes of aircraft !!!!!!!!

Perfectly normal, surely?

Eg choppers at 600', light aircraft at 1000', jets at 1500'.

This has always made sense to me. You wanna mix it in the low level circuit with the choppers you ask, you want to use the high level circuit for a PFL to the runway, you ask. Most times you get.

[salmabambi]

The question was whether a microlite can fly a smaller circuit pattern at standard circuit height and cut in front of another aircraft at will - who has already been given "No1 to land clearance" - merely because they are slower ..... I intentionally did not include choppers and jets.

Try cutting a microlite in front of a landing jet and I bet he will be popular !!!! ---- which is exactly my point.

[Whopity]

If an aircraft is designated No 1 then you clearly have ATC and they will determine what happens. That's why many airfields with ATC do not allow Microlights into the circuit because they are simply not compatible with most other traffic.

[englishal]

Clearance to do anything is one thing, but at an untowered airport or Airfield, you all have to fit in togethe without being told what to do and hence need to understand what someone else is likely to do.

[Whopity]

So now we are to have multiple for circuit patterns for differnt classes of aircraft !!!!!!!!

You got it. Look at Kemble!

I had a very well known and highly experienced examiner with me who concured with my view completly ... indeed even got on the radio to give the other pilot a bit of a licking !!!

A wonderful example of poor RT discipline, not exactly the mark of a highly experienced examiner!

Microlights need a different circuit height and pattern to most other aircraft, why should a microlight pilot even understand a larger aircraft's circuit requirements? The pilot has probably never flown one. Once upon a time engine failure in Microlights was a high possibility and their circuit was designed to keep them in a position where they could always make the field. If you are going to circuit fly at the same airfield as other traffic separate arrangements are essential. Ignorance and shouting at them on the radio is not going to produce a safe flying environment neither is expecting them to do a bomber circuit.