Four people in a Warrior II?
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This Cessna 172 FlightAware > N9086Y C172
was grossly over weight when it left St John's early today.
It has an FAA approved ferry tank and been certified for this flight.
They use lots of runway and rotation is usually +20 knot's with a shallow climb out.
was grossly over weight when it left St John's early today.
It has an FAA approved ferry tank and been certified for this flight.
They use lots of runway and rotation is usually +20 knot's with a shallow climb out.
thats a lot of water for a SEP!! any photos of the aircraft?
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer
Question: Does anybody here weigh the FAA "standard" adult weight that keeps being quoted of 170lb / 12st 2/ 77kg, or less ? How about your regular passengers?
I have also done a weekend trip (I seem to recall about a 2hr flight) in a Pa28, 4 up, 2x blokes, 2x girls, light luggage, and a full w&b before takeoff including actually weighing folks and their stuff. I even had to de-fuel somewhat, but the club had a 40gal drum on a trolley with a hand pump for that very purpose!
It is possible, but a lot depends on the people you're sticking in it. I also had a spreadsheet of all the club a/c and their useful load, which came in handy when booking..
(About where I am in light clothing as well, but I am a shortarse on a diet).
But my point being that the majority weren't able to say this - so the 77kg "standard" pilot is an inappropriate figure for flight planning.
Light aeroplanes, we really need to use actual figures.
G
But my point being that the majority weren't able to say this - so the 77kg "standard" pilot is an inappropriate figure for flight planning.
Light aeroplanes, we really need to use actual figures.
G
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Passenger weight has always been a problem, but more recently, more so, as some of our society seem to have an increased average weight. It's up to what you as the pilot are prepared to defend, should you be challenged.
When I started flying jumpers in the C 185, it was the common practice for the aircraft to carry 4 jumpers. And this was the 265HP lighter version of the 185. Though I was trying to "fit in" as a pilot in the group, I started questioning this. I started producing informal W&B for flights I had done. When I came up with a flight which had very obviously been more than 300 pounds over gross - that's more than one jumper too much. My resistance to flying these flights did not receive a warm reception. It was time for me to leave that operation.
The pilot who took my place was a young commercial time builder type pilot, who happily carried these loads.
I did send an anonymous safety report to the reporting system, suggesting that jump pilots should be presented with a W&B for each flight, including a weighing of the equipped jumpers. I am not aware this was ever put in place. I have not flown jumpers since....
When I started flying jumpers in the C 185, it was the common practice for the aircraft to carry 4 jumpers. And this was the 265HP lighter version of the 185. Though I was trying to "fit in" as a pilot in the group, I started questioning this. I started producing informal W&B for flights I had done. When I came up with a flight which had very obviously been more than 300 pounds over gross - that's more than one jumper too much. My resistance to flying these flights did not receive a warm reception. It was time for me to leave that operation.
The pilot who took my place was a young commercial time builder type pilot, who happily carried these loads.
I did send an anonymous safety report to the reporting system, suggesting that jump pilots should be presented with a W&B for each flight, including a weighing of the equipped jumpers. I am not aware this was ever put in place. I have not flown jumpers since....
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monkeyscribbler,
I used to regularly observe an older and very experienced instructor carry himself, his trainee, and two observer trainees in such an aircraft regularly; even in the old Cruisers if memory serves me correctly. They did circuits and trips to the training area all the time and no-one battered an eyelid.
I used to regularly observe an older and very experienced instructor carry himself, his trainee, and two observer trainees in such an aircraft regularly; even in the old Cruisers if memory serves me correctly. They did circuits and trips to the training area all the time and no-one battered an eyelid.
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Rejecting an overweight take off
Someone mentioned selecting a suitable rejection point on the runway if things don't seem to be going your way.
Here's a question....
Do you need more stopping distance due to the extra weight.... Or are the brakes more effective because of the extra weight?
I know what I think is the answer, but would be interested to know others thoughts!
DD...
Here's a question....
Do you need more stopping distance due to the extra weight.... Or are the brakes more effective because of the extra weight?
I know what I think is the answer, but would be interested to know others thoughts!
DD...
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Genghis,
I thought that went without saying - from memory the aussie regulator is quite specific that standard weights are only appropriate for aircraft with more than x seats (where x is I think 8, but don't remember)
I rather assumed standard weights were only used for example.
I thought that went without saying - from memory the aussie regulator is quite specific that standard weights are only appropriate for aircraft with more than x seats (where x is I think 8, but don't remember)
I rather assumed standard weights were only used for example.
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It is a good point that a rejected takeoff could take more distance to stop. When I developed an overweight flying procedure for a Cessna 207 I used to work with, this included a reference to the reality that if you do have to do an overgross stop with lots of brake, you'll need a brake inspection afterwards. You can burn out a set of brakes if you're really hard on them.
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Thanks for your help
Thanks all for your varying responses. I've finally been able to get down to the airfield since and do a W&B. with 2hrs of fuel + 45min reserve+SUTTO fuel, it looks like i can get everyone up and away within CofG and with 40lbs left over.
TODR & LDR are also both within available runway lengths, including for high temp, low wind and wet grass, so we're looking good.
I've spoken to a couple of the instructors there too who have said this isn't as experiemental a procedure as I had thought - just new PPL nerves i guess!
TODR & LDR are also both within available runway lengths, including for high temp, low wind and wet grass, so we're looking good.
I've spoken to a couple of the instructors there too who have said this isn't as experiemental a procedure as I had thought - just new PPL nerves i guess!
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Ok good to know that it is legal and theoretically possible.
Worth remembering though that the aircraft willl feel noticeably more sluggish than you are used to. It will be ready to fly at a higher speed and its initial climb will be poor - compared with what you are used to. If you add in a hot day the effects will all be magnified.
So the first time, if you are used to popping off the ground it will not happen - don't keep the nose up - let the speed build and the aircraft fly itself off. Depending on the aircraft the differences between 'light' and 'heavy' can be pretty dramatic, trying to do what you are used to may not work.
Worth remembering though that the aircraft willl feel noticeably more sluggish than you are used to. It will be ready to fly at a higher speed and its initial climb will be poor - compared with what you are used to. If you add in a hot day the effects will all be magnified.
So the first time, if you are used to popping off the ground it will not happen - don't keep the nose up - let the speed build and the aircraft fly itself off. Depending on the aircraft the differences between 'light' and 'heavy' can be pretty dramatic, trying to do what you are used to may not work.
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The other thing is that during your PPL training you will probably have used higher speeds than the Vr and Vref that are in the POH. Simply because you could, and because instructors tend to want to have a few extra knots in their pockets, so that they can let you make mistakes without having to take over immediately.
If you are going to fly to the limits, particularly the limits of take-off and landing distances, it is well worth doing a few circuits (while lightly loaded and with a sufficiently long runway) where you strictly fly to the Vr, Vx, Vy and Vref numbers from the POH. You will find that the picture at rotation/initial climb and final approach is different from what you're used to.
Remember: Only if you fly to the POH numbers will you get the performance as described in the POH.
If you are going to fly to the limits, particularly the limits of take-off and landing distances, it is well worth doing a few circuits (while lightly loaded and with a sufficiently long runway) where you strictly fly to the Vr, Vx, Vy and Vref numbers from the POH. You will find that the picture at rotation/initial climb and final approach is different from what you're used to.
Remember: Only if you fly to the POH numbers will you get the performance as described in the POH.
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To my mind this thread represents all that is best about Pprune - an honest, sensible question answered in an honest and sensible way without any rocks being thrown. Wonderful!
A few years ago I was chatting to a friend in an FBO operation at VGT (North Las Vegas) when a group of 4 large blokes from Wolverhampton or somewhere strolled in, straight off the Virgin flight from London.
They'd booked an Archer and were set to depart immediately. My friend let them down gracefully but made it clear they would not be flying anywhere out there 4 up in a PA-28. One of them had a twin rating and so they agreed to upgrade, but that meant staying overnight so he could do the checkride.
Since they had no arrangements, I drove them to the nearby Texas Casino. The Texas has sleeping policemen and as we pulled into the residential section the car grounded menacingly. I happened to catch the pilot's face at that moment and his expression was priceless.
Well done, Pprune!
A few years ago I was chatting to a friend in an FBO operation at VGT (North Las Vegas) when a group of 4 large blokes from Wolverhampton or somewhere strolled in, straight off the Virgin flight from London.
They'd booked an Archer and were set to depart immediately. My friend let them down gracefully but made it clear they would not be flying anywhere out there 4 up in a PA-28. One of them had a twin rating and so they agreed to upgrade, but that meant staying overnight so he could do the checkride.
Since they had no arrangements, I drove them to the nearby Texas Casino. The Texas has sleeping policemen and as we pulled into the residential section the car grounded menacingly. I happened to catch the pilot's face at that moment and his expression was priceless.
Well done, Pprune!
