An expensive and a bureaucratic quagmire.
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An expensive and a bureaucratic quagmire.
In the US, Canada and Australia it is your right to be able to fly. No roads in some places!
In Europe it is a privilege to be able to fly.
What people sometimes forget is the small size of this place. (British Isles)
The British isles are a small land mass at around 95,000 sq miles (give or take), California, one state alone is over 160,000 sq miles, almost twice the size.
We are saddled with needless over regulation, needless bureaucracy, excessive taxes to pay for a whole host of irrelevant things and sadly,
we are now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world and a country which has eroded away its freedoms through that big brother state mindset.
The government is too much in our lives and it appears that Socialism rules us.
My local airfield is Shoreham, and I have had a number of flights there now with instructors to help build my confidence of flying in the British isles,
and during these flights I have had a few touch & go's and have had to stomach the £8.72 each time I put my wheels on the tarmac, or indeed grass.
In the US I could do as many tough & go's as I liked and didn't have pay any extra costs for this. In a 2 hour lesson I could nail 15 landings easily and this is partcularly good at perfecting the all important landing phase of the flight. Also, if my approach looked unstable or I wanted to practice very important go arounds I could do this too and wouldn't have to worry about extra costs.
Whilst thinking about this, I decided that instead of doing touch and go's I would merely do circuit practice at Shoreham and instead substitute the touch and go for go arounds each time and avoid the extra cost. However, having looked at the Shoreham airport website I've realised that even a go around is subject to the £8.72 charge. Staggering!!
I question how many unstable approaches and consequently how may bad and potentially dangerous landings occur in the British isles because of not wanting to pay the 'approach charge'.
I argue that this does not allow a pilot to fly safely and relaxed, and I was taught that if any part of the approach is not right you should instigate a go around. I believe this is good and safe airmanship and that people should not be forced into making landings.
It also means that during the training phase you are restricted on your approach and landing practice because of the additional costs associated with this.
Take my 2 hour, 15 landing scenario: 15 x 8.72 = £130.8 just for landing. Lot's of dosh!!
I consider flying somewhere new now, having paid £22 to land C152s at Biggin in the past!
Redhill airfield charges.
Charges - Redhill Aerodrome
Popham membership is £125/year covering landings.
A quick google tells me at Popham I could get a C150 share for £2k, then £55/month and £35/hr - so at a sensible minimum of 30 hrs per year, renting at Shoreham would be £4,200, and a share would be ~£3,830 for your first year, and £1,830 for the second and subsequent years (with every chance of getting your £2k back one day).
We live in the British isles and we can land outside of the published operating hours (with prior permission) if we pay an extra £100 or so for the privilege!
Don't even mention the cost of fuel.......................I will......
Avgas at around £2 a litre has really taken the shine off flying!
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport. It does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
Durham Tees, the landing fee was fixed at £24.99. Compare that to Doncaster and Humberside - both £44 for a PA28 for landing, then there's handling at Donny too....
Cranfield, England Landing Fees.
I paid landing fees of about £30 quid (US $50) for a light single and nearly £50 (USD 83) for a twin.
When I last enquired about landing fees at Cranfield they quoted me £37 (USD 62) + VAT for a PA28.
I've recently done an IMC hold and ILS approach (during my IMC flight test!) at Cranfield - didn't land - and was charged £20 (USD 33) + VAT.
I was last there in June last year and I remember paying about £30 (USD 50) in a C152.
I paid £41 (USD 68) for the pleasure of landing at Durham tees valley recently, bloody daylight robbery!
For a PA28 it was around £40 (USD 67) weekdays
Being charged for exam sign-off!
Hi there,
Please can someone advise me, I am considering changing flight schools,
I have been informed by the CFI at my current flight school that the last four ground exams I passed have not been signed off and that they will charge me to have them signed off.
Is this normal practice?
I find this totally incredible as I assummed not only that each exam passed would be signed off after being taken.
The CFI then told me that their usual practice is to wait until the student complete's the PPL course and then they get them all signed off,any advice I would be most grateful for, thanks,
Have you paid the CAA fee to the school for each of the exams you've taken thus far?
If yes, then the school have recorded the pass on behalf of the CAA, else what have you paid a CAA fee for?
The only "sign off" you need is the record of exams on your licence application (CAA form SRG1105) and there's already a fee for that application (£181 - (USD 301) see CAA Scheme of Charges, Personnel Licensing, 28 January 2011), not a secondary fee for signing bits of it.
Could anyone please tell me what the EuroNav charges would be on something like a TBM 700 currently....
A TBM is about £50-£100 (USD 83-166) per hour.
In Europe it is a privilege to be able to fly.
What people sometimes forget is the small size of this place. (British Isles)
The British isles are a small land mass at around 95,000 sq miles (give or take), California, one state alone is over 160,000 sq miles, almost twice the size.
We are saddled with needless over regulation, needless bureaucracy, excessive taxes to pay for a whole host of irrelevant things and sadly,
we are now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world and a country which has eroded away its freedoms through that big brother state mindset.
The government is too much in our lives and it appears that Socialism rules us.
My local airfield is Shoreham, and I have had a number of flights there now with instructors to help build my confidence of flying in the British isles,
and during these flights I have had a few touch & go's and have had to stomach the £8.72 each time I put my wheels on the tarmac, or indeed grass.
In the US I could do as many tough & go's as I liked and didn't have pay any extra costs for this. In a 2 hour lesson I could nail 15 landings easily and this is partcularly good at perfecting the all important landing phase of the flight. Also, if my approach looked unstable or I wanted to practice very important go arounds I could do this too and wouldn't have to worry about extra costs.
Whilst thinking about this, I decided that instead of doing touch and go's I would merely do circuit practice at Shoreham and instead substitute the touch and go for go arounds each time and avoid the extra cost. However, having looked at the Shoreham airport website I've realised that even a go around is subject to the £8.72 charge. Staggering!!
I question how many unstable approaches and consequently how may bad and potentially dangerous landings occur in the British isles because of not wanting to pay the 'approach charge'.
I argue that this does not allow a pilot to fly safely and relaxed, and I was taught that if any part of the approach is not right you should instigate a go around. I believe this is good and safe airmanship and that people should not be forced into making landings.
It also means that during the training phase you are restricted on your approach and landing practice because of the additional costs associated with this.
Take my 2 hour, 15 landing scenario: 15 x 8.72 = £130.8 just for landing. Lot's of dosh!!
I consider flying somewhere new now, having paid £22 to land C152s at Biggin in the past!
Redhill airfield charges.
Charges - Redhill Aerodrome
Popham membership is £125/year covering landings.
A quick google tells me at Popham I could get a C150 share for £2k, then £55/month and £35/hr - so at a sensible minimum of 30 hrs per year, renting at Shoreham would be £4,200, and a share would be ~£3,830 for your first year, and £1,830 for the second and subsequent years (with every chance of getting your £2k back one day).
We live in the British isles and we can land outside of the published operating hours (with prior permission) if we pay an extra £100 or so for the privilege!
Don't even mention the cost of fuel.......................I will......
Avgas at around £2 a litre has really taken the shine off flying!
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport. It does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
Durham Tees, the landing fee was fixed at £24.99. Compare that to Doncaster and Humberside - both £44 for a PA28 for landing, then there's handling at Donny too....
Cranfield, England Landing Fees.
I paid landing fees of about £30 quid (US $50) for a light single and nearly £50 (USD 83) for a twin.
When I last enquired about landing fees at Cranfield they quoted me £37 (USD 62) + VAT for a PA28.
I've recently done an IMC hold and ILS approach (during my IMC flight test!) at Cranfield - didn't land - and was charged £20 (USD 33) + VAT.
I was last there in June last year and I remember paying about £30 (USD 50) in a C152.
I paid £41 (USD 68) for the pleasure of landing at Durham tees valley recently, bloody daylight robbery!
For a PA28 it was around £40 (USD 67) weekdays
Being charged for exam sign-off!
Hi there,
Please can someone advise me, I am considering changing flight schools,
I have been informed by the CFI at my current flight school that the last four ground exams I passed have not been signed off and that they will charge me to have them signed off.
Is this normal practice?
I find this totally incredible as I assummed not only that each exam passed would be signed off after being taken.
The CFI then told me that their usual practice is to wait until the student complete's the PPL course and then they get them all signed off,any advice I would be most grateful for, thanks,
Have you paid the CAA fee to the school for each of the exams you've taken thus far?
If yes, then the school have recorded the pass on behalf of the CAA, else what have you paid a CAA fee for?
The only "sign off" you need is the record of exams on your licence application (CAA form SRG1105) and there's already a fee for that application (£181 - (USD 301) see CAA Scheme of Charges, Personnel Licensing, 28 January 2011), not a secondary fee for signing bits of it.
Could anyone please tell me what the EuroNav charges would be on something like a TBM 700 currently....
A TBM is about £50-£100 (USD 83-166) per hour.
Have you paid the CAA fee to the school for each of the exams you've taken thus far?
I have been informed by the CFI at my current flight school that the last four ground exams I passed have not been signed off and that they will charge me to have them signed off.
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What you are describing is basically the result of GA in Europe being privatised and not subsidised by the general taxpayer as a transport infrastructure which is what the USA does.
There isn't anything one can do about it, but yes it is crap.
However this
is wholly self inflicted by the owners of these planes, most of whom couldn't care less what they pay, and this has given rise to silly prices like that. Add to that inept airport management (pretty well the standard in much of Europe) which "likes jets and doesn't like pistons" and you get all the airports which have priced GA out while happily charging £400 a pop to jet owners who pay it without a blink.
IMHO, if jet owners decided to become strategic on this, we would see big changes at airports, which would probably consider killing the "mandatory handling" system which has become so common. But this will never happen all the time enough people want to pay £5000 for a spot of shopping at Cannes.
Cranfield's charges are plain silly; they have decided that the schools there make them enough money and they don't want anybody else going there.
There isn't anything one can do about it, but yes it is crap.
However this
Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport. It does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.
IMHO, if jet owners decided to become strategic on this, we would see big changes at airports, which would probably consider killing the "mandatory handling" system which has become so common. But this will never happen all the time enough people want to pay £5000 for a spot of shopping at Cannes.
Cranfield's charges are plain silly; they have decided that the schools there make them enough money and they don't want anybody else going there.
The CFI then told me that their usual practice is to wait until the student complete's the PPL course and then they get them all signed off,any advice I would be most grateful for, thanks,
Lazy schools with slack administration often pay little attention to this requirement; you should insist that the Examiner does so.
Everything must have been completed before the Skill Test; if the Examiner checks the application form and finds that your exams haven't been 'signed-off', he/she has every right to take your fee and terminate the Skill Test there and then!
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In the US, Canada and Australia it is your right to be able to fly. No roads in some places!
In Europe it is a privilege to be able to fly.
In Europe it is a privilege to be able to fly.
Shoreham Airport has strict noise abatement rules:
Shoreham Airport has a local agreement with West Sussex County Council (under section 52 of the Town and Country Planning Act) which among other things sets limits on:
- Total annual air traffic movements (75,000 max excluding emergency services)
- Touch and Go movements (22,000 max within the overall total of 75,000)
- The number of heavy aircraft (ie in excess of 15000lbs) using the airfield in any one year.
- The hours and types of operation.
- Total annual air traffic movements (75,000 max excluding emergency services)
- Touch and Go movements (22,000 max within the overall total of 75,000)
- The number of heavy aircraft (ie in excess of 15000lbs) using the airfield in any one year.
- The hours and types of operation.
You are a hobby flyer. Assuming you are a grown up, there is no good reason why anyone else should subsidise your hobby, least of all the taxpayer. Airfield fees are how you pay for the infrastructure you use. You have a choice, if you don't think an airfield is worth the money, don't use it.
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there is no good reason why anyone else should subsidise your hobby, least of all the taxpayer
"Sports" for a starter...
2. If they won't spend a penny on aviation, I don't see why I should continue to pay
those ridiculously high fuel taxes.
You are a hobby flyer. Assuming you are a grown up, there is no good reason why anyone else should subsidise your hobby, least of all the taxpayer. Airfield fees are how you pay for the infrastructure you use. You have a choice, if you don't think an airfield is worth the money, don't use it.
I refuse to keep on apologising for my hobby and what it costs me, I dislike the money that flows from my back pocket to benefits, but I am told that it's my punishment for being successful!! I also sign a cheque for HMRC from my company on a monthly basis which irks me considering the inability of the powers that be to spend it responsibly...
My comments in a previous posting remain topical....
Quote:
It gets me going when some suggest that all I am doing in this country is to pillage and rob the economy and those people that do not partake of one of my passions…
‘Millionaire pilots’ invariably contribute the following items to keep this economy afloat, including but not limited to:
1. PAYE in HUGE chunks, because they are either employed, or employers,
2. Tax on fuel for their vehicle(s),
3. Road tax for their vehicle(s),
4. Create employment in aviation,
5. Council tax in HUGE chunks for their residences, because I cannot imagine many of them, if any, in benefit housing,
6. Huge chunks of VAT for equipment, training, etc, etc,
7. Taxes on aviation fuel.
Taxes should not be punitive, should not be tweaked and adjusted to reflect my income/asset base/activities etc, it should be levied equally to those that partake, or could potentially partake of the benefits provided by those taxes.
Alternately people with other expensive hobbies, i.e. photography, parenthood, car racing, etc etc should be subjected to the same persecution....
My comments in a previous posting remain topical....
Quote:
It gets me going when some suggest that all I am doing in this country is to pillage and rob the economy and those people that do not partake of one of my passions…
‘Millionaire pilots’ invariably contribute the following items to keep this economy afloat, including but not limited to:
1. PAYE in HUGE chunks, because they are either employed, or employers,
2. Tax on fuel for their vehicle(s),
3. Road tax for their vehicle(s),
4. Create employment in aviation,
5. Council tax in HUGE chunks for their residences, because I cannot imagine many of them, if any, in benefit housing,
6. Huge chunks of VAT for equipment, training, etc, etc,
7. Taxes on aviation fuel.
Taxes should not be punitive, should not be tweaked and adjusted to reflect my income/asset base/activities etc, it should be levied equally to those that partake, or could potentially partake of the benefits provided by those taxes.
Alternately people with other expensive hobbies, i.e. photography, parenthood, car racing, etc etc should be subjected to the same persecution....
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In the US I could do as many tough & go's as I liked and didn't have pay any extra costs for this.
If you are successful and rich, move to the US and save yourself having to pay those circuit fees.
Whatever you do, don't go to live in the US if you are poor! (Even if you could!)
Moderator
I have to agree with B4aeros to a large degree. Running and airport involves a lot of cost, a lot of lost opportunity for the value of the land, and often involves negotiation with the neighbours. All of that will result in a cost, which should be borne by the user. I really do not want Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer paying for my "hobby", as they could then influence the terms, and, they'll want me to pay for theirs.
I have posted before that once you've bought the land, made the runway, and built the hangar, landing fees will sound cheap by comparison.
I have posted before that once you've bought the land, made the runway, and built the hangar, landing fees will sound cheap by comparison.
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‘Millionaire pilots’ invariably contribute the following items to keep this economy afloat, including but not limited to:
1. PAYE in HUGE chunks, because they are either employed, or employers,
2. Tax on fuel for their vehicle(s),
3. Road tax for their vehicle(s),
4. Create employment in aviation,
5. Council tax in HUGE chunks for their residences, because I cannot imagine many of them, if any, in benefit housing,
6. Huge chunks of VAT for equipment, training, etc, etc,
7. Taxes on aviation fuel.
1. PAYE in HUGE chunks, because they are either employed, or employers,
2. Tax on fuel for their vehicle(s),
3. Road tax for their vehicle(s),
4. Create employment in aviation,
5. Council tax in HUGE chunks for their residences, because I cannot imagine many of them, if any, in benefit housing,
6. Huge chunks of VAT for equipment, training, etc, etc,
7. Taxes on aviation fuel.
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10540
There is probably a lot of googling, cutting and pasting going on in this forum
How many check their answers first by googling away and edit the professional answers to look as if all that knowledge comes from the posters superior intellect?
If someone has already said what you want to say why not save a lot of time and effort by putting together bits and pieces from articles you like?
At least the guy must have liked the comments I made which is flattering as I usually write a load of drivel
Pace
There is probably a lot of googling, cutting and pasting going on in this forum
How many check their answers first by googling away and edit the professional answers to look as if all that knowledge comes from the posters superior intellect?
If someone has already said what you want to say why not save a lot of time and effort by putting together bits and pieces from articles you like?
At least the guy must have liked the comments I made which is flattering as I usually write a load of drivel
Pace
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I have to admit to being a bit baffled by this thread. At a stretch I can maybe understand why people with no flight experience might come on here and post things they have found on google so that they can sound like they know their stuff and boost their ego. But just word for word copying someone elses complaint/opinion, what is the point? What possible jollies can someone get from that?
Moderator
I usually write a load of drivel. This sort of drivel is posted by people who actually think it makes them seem clever. I can maybe understand why people with no flight experience might come on here and post things. plagiarizing other people's threads from older posts and passing them off as his own work.........
Hey this copying is great! I don't have to think to post!
And to think, a PPRuNer was banned for being offensive, I wonder what the penalty for gross plagarizm is?
Hey this copying is great! I don't have to think to post!
And to think, a PPRuNer was banned for being offensive, I wonder what the penalty for gross plagarizm is?
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No! Guppy didn't need to plagarize other folk's posts, I always thought that his posts were all original material from him - and I miss them! Come back Guppy!!
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private flying a hobby ???
I find the idea of GA being a "hobby" slightly bizarre. Yes, there are recreational pilots, just as there are people who drive Lotuses and Ferraris on sunny Sundays. But GA as a whole is no more the province of "hobbyists" than driving a car....
Well said ! Unfortunately a lot of people in Belgium (or Europe) don't seem to grasp that. I remember being slightly irritated when one of the standard Belgian syllabi writes "A two-blade propellor is common for a sports aircraft", completely ignoring private flying as a means of transport.Indeed, it is like saying that all non-lorry or bus drivers are "hobbyists". I suddenly get this great EASA inspired road safety idea : as Europe wants to halve the number of road accidents by 2020, why don't we just introduce a ban on private car usage ? Actually, we don't ban it, we just require potential drivers to sit 7 ludicrous exams and charge £20K for the license issuing. Road safety guaranteed !
Moderator
Well, if ever there was a thread worthy of drifting, it's gotta be this one!
Sport planes: Is personal flying from place to place, or just "around" to the pilot's satisfaction a sport? Is driving a car with a removable roof and stripes on a public road a sport? I know that my car is not insured if I drive it in "sporting events", so I'm certain it's not a sports car (I doubt that many diesel station wagons would be anyway!). I have noticed that most TV advertisments for cars, which show them being driven, have a warning at the bottom of the sreen which says something like "professional driver, closed course", so I wonder if I could buy that car, and drive it on a public road anyway.
I do loop and roll my plane, as well as use it of long distance flying, but aside from possible air traffic control interest, nobody judges or scores my flying, so I doubt either personal aerobatics, or cross country flight is a sport.
I do see a lot of trucks labled "OFF ROAD" on public roads, I've always wonder how that is allowed!
I can see the wisdom of the 7 exams and 20K for driving licensing. We'd have only the very best, most serious people driving, and the income would cover highway costs excellently!
If someone would like to have flying as a hobby, that's perfectly fine with me, as long as they take it as serioulsy as those of us who work in the aviation industry. But, as long as businesses struggle to make a go of it with a few two seat trainers, and John Travolta flies a B707 around for a hobby, I don't think "hobby" and aircraft size should be associated with each other.
Sport planes: Is personal flying from place to place, or just "around" to the pilot's satisfaction a sport? Is driving a car with a removable roof and stripes on a public road a sport? I know that my car is not insured if I drive it in "sporting events", so I'm certain it's not a sports car (I doubt that many diesel station wagons would be anyway!). I have noticed that most TV advertisments for cars, which show them being driven, have a warning at the bottom of the sreen which says something like "professional driver, closed course", so I wonder if I could buy that car, and drive it on a public road anyway.
I do loop and roll my plane, as well as use it of long distance flying, but aside from possible air traffic control interest, nobody judges or scores my flying, so I doubt either personal aerobatics, or cross country flight is a sport.
I do see a lot of trucks labled "OFF ROAD" on public roads, I've always wonder how that is allowed!
I can see the wisdom of the 7 exams and 20K for driving licensing. We'd have only the very best, most serious people driving, and the income would cover highway costs excellently!
If someone would like to have flying as a hobby, that's perfectly fine with me, as long as they take it as serioulsy as those of us who work in the aviation industry. But, as long as businesses struggle to make a go of it with a few two seat trainers, and John Travolta flies a B707 around for a hobby, I don't think "hobby" and aircraft size should be associated with each other.