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Can you call another A/C?

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Can you call another A/C?

Old 20th Jun 2011, 20:56
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Can you call another aircraft in flight

Seething is Air Ground radio only so cannot tell you what to do.

What day of the week was this and a rough time.????

Aircraft in the Seething area often talk to each other as the Tower is not always manned.

Seething Satco
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 21:36
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SoCal, I didn't pass my RT until 19 years after I got my PPL!!

It wasn't a legal requirement to have one in the '80s and it wasn't until I came back to flying later on that I had to do it.


In this situation I normally say to the A/G: "G-xxxx request circuit traffic" which normally gets me a quick run down of who is doing what, this is especially useful at airfields where you need to backtrack
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 22:18
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Surely it's an air/ground frequency, with Seething holding the licence, and not an air/air frequency?

When a/g is closed, obviously the a/c have only blind calls to make & each other to talk to, but when it is open a request would have to be made through the a/g operator, I would have thought?
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 22:51
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Surely it's an air/ground frequency, with Seething holding the licence, and not an air/air frequency?
I never heard of frequencies being classified this way, I learned frequencies are associated with services and services are associated with regions of airspace.

Back to the original question: my R/T syllabus mentions "interpilot" communications and outlines how to do them properly (though I must admit I couldn't rehearse it all right now), so I really can't see what the A/G operator was whining about. Just a bad moment, probably, that has happened to the best of us, hasn't it.
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 23:11
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I trust you were not blabbering away on 123.45
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 23:18
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RT rating was a requirement if you intended to use the radio
SoCal, the word "if" is the crux of the matter here, there were places even into the nineties IIRC where you could do a whole PPL course on non-radio aircraft. Admittedly, this would be an unusual option and not sure how many may have chosen to do so. But if you intended to fly something vintage with no electrics out of a private strip, then why not?
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 23:57
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Just wanted to say - not all Flying Schools require air law for first solo - I first soloed today (grin required ) and haven't sat the exam.
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Old 21st Jun 2011, 16:23
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As PIC, you do what ever you feel you need to for safe flying practices.
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Old 21st Jun 2011, 17:57
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A/G and FISO or ATC basically do what it says on the tin.
Stone me, I've seen them in towers, huts and caravans. Is this a Seething speciality? Normal for Norfolk...
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Old 21st Jun 2011, 18:17
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radio operator said: ''you cannot call another aircraft''
My response to this would've been, "I think you'll find I just did!"
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 08:35
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"I was joining and other aircraft had just joined and when i was overhead i called G-aaaa can i have your position please because i had not heard him call downwind ".
How then, did you know that he had just joined?

If you were in the overhead, about to descend deadside, why call him at all? There was no conflict. A blind position report would have told him what you were up to. That's why we make such calls.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 10:45
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Reading this, I'm thinking that all the convoluted application of 'the rules' is removing something pretty important, namely common sense, though to be fair it is increasingly absent from life in general these days.

If you're tooling around, knowing another aircraft is in the vicinity, but you can't see it, why doesn't matter - if you stuffed up, so what? Break the chain. Talk. Ask. One of the major reasons for having a radio is alerted see and avoid - it'll hopefully get both of you looking in the right direction. Ask for forgiveness later (if necessary), hard to do that if you're tumbling earthward..

For what it's worth where I learned to fly (aus), it was entirely common to coordinate directly with other a/c in the circuit.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 11:19
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skyfly 150

Do I read it correctly that you are signing your post as "Seething Satco"? Delusions of grandeur or what?

2 s
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 12:28
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Perhaps he is a Satco who is very cross.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 12:34
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Reading this, I'm thinking that all the convoluted application of 'the rules' is removing something pretty important, namely common sense, though to be fair it is increasingly absent from life in general these days.

If you're tooling around, knowing another aircraft is in the vicinity, but you can't see it, why doesn't matter - if you stuffed up, so what? Break the chain. Talk. Ask. One of the major reasons for having a radio is alerted see and avoid - it'll hopefully get both of you looking in the right direction. Ask for forgiveness later (if necessary), hard to do that if you're tumbling earthward..

For what it's worth where I learned to fly (aus), it was entirely common to coordinate directly with other a/c in the circuit.
Though I think it is no big deal what OP did, I can kind of understand the response from A/G too.

I think OP shouldn't be too bolstered up on 'hey you did nothing wrong'. It might not have been 'wrong' but on the other hand it isn't usual practice at an A/G field to talk directly to other aircraft for positioning, this is why each aircraft makes position reports. I think to be honest we have a situation with a student pilot probably A) did the right thing in the circumstance, B) should take away from the experience that some further training is required regarding 'normal' radio procedures at an A/G field. It's always worth simply talking to those involved when things like this happen and learn their opinion direct. Quite a bit of rubbish spoken on this thread regards the 'powers' of an A/G operator. I don't see that the A/G operator issued an instruction or gave a clearance, simply that they were trying to guide regarding the normal R/T procedure.

That isn't to say I've never been contacted by another aircraft at an A/G field, but one wouldn't usually do it IMOH and lets remember we are only hearing one side of the story.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 12:49
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Mr Cessna, as a standard practice you should not assume the right to talk aircraft-to-aircraft on any active frequency, no matter whether A/G, AFIS, or full ATC, without the specific approval of the ground operator. Out of hours, certainly on the first two, is perhaps another matter; but even then calls should be short and to the point.

In the case you quote, if you were really concerned about a conflict, give your standard position call “overhead / dead-side” etc, ending with “request other traffic”. Either the ground operator or the other aircraft should respond.

In reality, safety (although I detest the current catch-all over-use of that word) is the priority, and any reasonable use of the radio to achieve that end in my opinion is valid, irrespective of what the book says.

As an example when flying in to an event at a well-known airfield with (at that time) A/G radio, on very short-final when a Cherokee appeared large in the windscreen right above, having apparently cut in front of the others on final behind, descending steeply and at almost the same speed. Gulp! The call “?X Cherokee immediate go-around NOW, you’re right on top of me and I’ve nowhere to go” is not in CAP413, but it worked.

I’m slightly bemused that your profile says you have a PPL, and are current on 8 or 9 different types …. but have no R/T licence ….

I take the view that nobody should issue a reprimand of any kind over the radio, especially to a student, as it is likely to achieve nothing but distraction.

Last edited by SlipSlider; 22nd Jun 2011 at 14:08.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 15:46
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Conventional Gear, I agree.

Generally it's not normal, even at a completely uncontrolled field, though not necessarily entirely unusual. Nor was that an 'attaboy'. Normally the position reports suffice. If anything I suspect the training point is better situational awareness, but that's something that comes with time.

I take the point about requesting traffic, but that is less direct, takes more time, and in many cases the radio operator may well not have the circuit under observation. Maybe it's a culture difference, but there seems to be an attitude that ground services are there to tell us what to do, rather than to facilitate our needs.

I seem to recall that there's a catchall somewhere in air law that says the PIC can do basically what they want if they percieve safety to be an issue, just be prepared to justify your actions later
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 16:11
  #38 (permalink)  

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I seem to recall that there's a catchall somewhere in air law that says the PIC can do basically what they want if they percieve safety to be an issue, just be prepared to justify your actions later
Yes, that's correct.

It's totally unnecessary (and a potential flight safety hazard) to be taken to task in the air, especially by an A/G radio operator at an unlicensed private strip!
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:04
  #39 (permalink)  

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All we have is an interpretation of what the OP stated took place.
And that is exactly what I have responded to.

An A/G operator cannot control an aircraft or issue any sort of clearance (or not) and the regulations specifically warn them not to do so.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:05
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Must admit I only posted as it all seemed a bit one sided. Glad to see others can at least see the same.

Reminds me a lot of a thread here a couple of years or more ago before I joined up.

Guy goes to flying club, flies with instructor, instructor won't sign him off to fly club aircraft.

Wow, the abuse against instructors that followed went on for pages. What an 'idiot' the instructor was, how dare an instructor teach a qualified PPL how to fly when he just went for a checkout and so it went on. (and on, and on).

Here I was laughing my head off reading it all, knowing said instructor who is in simple terms one of the best I've had the good fortune to have flown with, knowing the flying club, where quite simply they only employ damn good instructors. Knowing the actual circumstances of what the plonker had done during the flight to not get signed off. Fact he went on to fly with another instructor from the club with exactly the same result said it all really.

I made a total hash once of joining at Lydd. Complete mess of it and they assumed I had descended dead-side which isn't allowed. Made for some frosty R/T. I could have come on PPRuNe and told a very one sided story and had lots of people tell me I was PIC and could do no wrong. I didn't I simply called up when I got home and talked it over with the guy on the phone. I got where he was coming from, he got what I had actually done and why, we both gained something from it. Most importantly I knew I could fly back again and be really confident that it wouldn't be a problem next time.

All in all the best advice on here, if you have any R/T issues with an operator at a field you arriving at, either go talk to them when you land, or at least when you get back home and see if you can learn something.
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