Tiger Moth Crash
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Let's start again....... Everything is forgotten and forgiven.....
Some are here to learn and others are here to give advice or both. We are ALL saddened by the loss of life, injuries and loss of a beautiful plane, but this forum is not intended to be an in-memoriam register....
No one intends to crash, so I am sure the pilot was intending a diligent flight within the frame of his own perceived limitations as well as within the frame of what he understood to be his plane's limitations.
I am a pilot and a foreigner to the UK and I would like to know what may have caused this accident, and I do not want to wait for the investigation, this is why I come on this forum.
The debris field seems from the video and photo's to be so small that very little horizontal speed was there at the moment of impact combined with some substantial vertical speed.
Is there someone close to the airplane and/or occupants who can shed light on the background of either the plane or the pilot.
Are there TM pilots who are willing to shed some light on the possibly applicable idiosyncrasies of the TM which could have contributed to this crash?
Some are here to learn and others are here to give advice or both. We are ALL saddened by the loss of life, injuries and loss of a beautiful plane, but this forum is not intended to be an in-memoriam register....
No one intends to crash, so I am sure the pilot was intending a diligent flight within the frame of his own perceived limitations as well as within the frame of what he understood to be his plane's limitations.
I am a pilot and a foreigner to the UK and I would like to know what may have caused this accident, and I do not want to wait for the investigation, this is why I come on this forum.
The debris field seems from the video and photo's to be so small that very little horizontal speed was there at the moment of impact combined with some substantial vertical speed.
Is there someone close to the airplane and/or occupants who can shed light on the background of either the plane or the pilot.
Are there TM pilots who are willing to shed some light on the possibly applicable idiosyncrasies of the TM which could have contributed to this crash?
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I am a pilot and a foreigner to the UK and I would like to know what may have caused this accident, and I do not want to wait for the investigation, this is why I come on this forum.
If you genuinely want to "learn" then study the monthly AAIB (and other) bulletins for trends / specifics to your type of flying.
If there is something urgent that comes out of the AAIB investigation prior to the report, it will be disseminated.
If you really think that pPrune debates on accidents really enhance Flt Safety please provide an example - there are plenty of threads where a report was later published. It always amazes me how difficult it is to relate the report to the **** that was posted here
There can be value on debate on flying in general clearly removing the specifics of an accident not yet reported on (as we did above).
NoD
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May I refer those looking to stifle debate and conjecture on this accident to posts 43,45 and 46.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Not discussing safety means we forego the opportunity to learn from others' experiences.
If you don't want to read other's posts regarding this thread then stop reading it. Nobody is forcing you.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Not discussing safety means we forego the opportunity to learn from others' experiences.
If you don't want to read other's posts regarding this thread then stop reading it. Nobody is forcing you.
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May I refer those looking to stifle debate
and conjecture
Disappointingly, some on this forum are displaying gross insensitvity and a lack of decency. [moderator note - the posts referred to have been deleted]
If you want pPrune "policy" look no further than the bottom of each page
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
So my lines of thought would be:
- Do not unnecessarily "speculate".
- Caveat comments e.g. as above and having no regard for the unfortunate accidentI'm not referring to this specific accident here
- Bear in mind what you say may be in the press and seen by the relatives shortly thereafter. Decide if you really need to say what you are saying? And do you need to say it now? (The press factor will go away after a day or 2).
I'd ask you to have a good look at what you are typing and ask yourselves, "Does this really add any value?"
This is PPRuNe - "Professional Pilots Rumour Network" - and it is to be expected that it will do exactly what it says on the tin.
Bottom line to me is
If you don't want to read other's posts regarding this thread then stop reading it. Nobody is forcing you.
NoD
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Unfortunately posting on here does have consequences and thus responsibilities by posters.
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Dead man named
The dead man has been named as Orlando Rogers:
Tiger Moth crash victim was former Royal Marine Orlando Rogers (From Bournemouth Echo)
Tiger Moth crash victim was former Royal Marine Orlando Rogers (From Bournemouth Echo)
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Conjecture covers a mutitude of sins, and in many cases is, IMHO inappropriate. As per the Mods'
Quote:
so there have been inappropriate posts.
Quote:
Disappointingly, some on this forum are displaying gross insensitvity and a lack of decency. [moderator note - the posts referred to have been deleted]
The deleted posts were not conjecture, but were definitely inappropriate.
SD
Moderator
It's sad that someone crashed. My empathy as appropriate....
However, that fact that someone crashed, and that event was the catalyst for a discussion about the characteristics of a particular type of aircraft, or the elements of decision making for a safe flight, does not necessarily make that discussion in isolation, worthy of criticism.
I agree that there can be a fine line of getting into "arm chair investigation" of the particular event, which I do not support. But, arm chair discussion about aircraft, and piloting in general, or by type, is what this forum is here for.
I do my darndest when I fly to conduct the flight so that there is as little chance as possible that all of you are talking about my accident one day. One element of this, is gleaning other's wise thoughts. If those thoughts pop up coincident to a crash, well, the crash was just the catalyst.
Several years ago, a helicopter I had previously test flown was crashed with four fatalities. I spoke with the operations manager the next day, and offered symapthy. He told me the cause right away. It was a absolutely a human factors situation. The following day, all of their helicopters, and several other aircraft with which I am associated were the subject of an operational change to prevent a reoccurance. Further to this, I was given immediate permission to discuss the known cause, and release photos I had, simply in the interest of disseminating safety information without delay, and while it was fresh in people's minds. This all occurred while I was being slagged on the Rotorheads forum for "thinking I had some special information", and while the TSB was still beginning their investigation. Though it is probably out, I have never seen the report - 'don't need to, I know what it would say. A small part of the wreck of that helicopter sits in front of me now, so I never forget....
Yes, we have to respect sensativities, and toward that end must avoid a personal attack on a pilot at a difficult time, but human factors remain a prime cause of accidents (I'm not saying this one - I have no idea). We need to recognize that, and do what we can to maximize a culture of safe aviation.
Perhaps most pilots reading here will not fly a Moth, but if one pilot remembers one wisdom here, applicable to a Moth, or similar type, and that wisdom becomes a part of a safey culture for that pilot, and is then passed on, safety happened, and that justifies such posts here in my mind...
However, that fact that someone crashed, and that event was the catalyst for a discussion about the characteristics of a particular type of aircraft, or the elements of decision making for a safe flight, does not necessarily make that discussion in isolation, worthy of criticism.
I agree that there can be a fine line of getting into "arm chair investigation" of the particular event, which I do not support. But, arm chair discussion about aircraft, and piloting in general, or by type, is what this forum is here for.
I do my darndest when I fly to conduct the flight so that there is as little chance as possible that all of you are talking about my accident one day. One element of this, is gleaning other's wise thoughts. If those thoughts pop up coincident to a crash, well, the crash was just the catalyst.
Several years ago, a helicopter I had previously test flown was crashed with four fatalities. I spoke with the operations manager the next day, and offered symapthy. He told me the cause right away. It was a absolutely a human factors situation. The following day, all of their helicopters, and several other aircraft with which I am associated were the subject of an operational change to prevent a reoccurance. Further to this, I was given immediate permission to discuss the known cause, and release photos I had, simply in the interest of disseminating safety information without delay, and while it was fresh in people's minds. This all occurred while I was being slagged on the Rotorheads forum for "thinking I had some special information", and while the TSB was still beginning their investigation. Though it is probably out, I have never seen the report - 'don't need to, I know what it would say. A small part of the wreck of that helicopter sits in front of me now, so I never forget....
Yes, we have to respect sensativities, and toward that end must avoid a personal attack on a pilot at a difficult time, but human factors remain a prime cause of accidents (I'm not saying this one - I have no idea). We need to recognize that, and do what we can to maximize a culture of safe aviation.
Perhaps most pilots reading here will not fly a Moth, but if one pilot remembers one wisdom here, applicable to a Moth, or similar type, and that wisdom becomes a part of a safey culture for that pilot, and is then passed on, safety happened, and that justifies such posts here in my mind...
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Thank you pilot DAR.
I wonder how many pilots (after having been lost in a piloting accident) here would object to their demise being discussed here in detail and at length, irrespective if they had made a human error or if the cause of their crash was a different one.
I would suspect most would have no objection to this. I certainly would not, and you can keep a record of this post if ever you need the argument.
I wonder how many pilots (after having been lost in a piloting accident) here would object to their demise being discussed here in detail and at length, irrespective if they had made a human error or if the cause of their crash was a different one.
I would suspect most would have no objection to this. I certainly would not, and you can keep a record of this post if ever you need the argument.
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NoD
There are many cases of PP helping with flight safety as a result of a discussion regarding an accident. I gained a lot for the discussion following the 2007 fatal collision near Abbots Bromley. This thread inspired me to change my operating procedures and has undoubtedly reduced my chances of having a mid air. Other threads have rammed home the importance of “don’t stall” if you have engine failure, again following several engine failure accidents, which were debated, on this forum in some detail.
If you look up the case of the modified micro which crashed on an instructional flight (G-STYX) and killed two people. The forums disagreed so strongly with the AAIB that an alternative report was produced and eventually accepted buy the coroner, although the AAIB has still not formally apologised for its incompetence on that occasion.
G-STYX
Rod1
There are many cases of PP helping with flight safety as a result of a discussion regarding an accident. I gained a lot for the discussion following the 2007 fatal collision near Abbots Bromley. This thread inspired me to change my operating procedures and has undoubtedly reduced my chances of having a mid air. Other threads have rammed home the importance of “don’t stall” if you have engine failure, again following several engine failure accidents, which were debated, on this forum in some detail.
If you look up the case of the modified micro which crashed on an instructional flight (G-STYX) and killed two people. The forums disagreed so strongly with the AAIB that an alternative report was produced and eventually accepted buy the coroner, although the AAIB has still not formally apologised for its incompetence on that occasion.
G-STYX
Rod1
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Seems the pilot has pleaded not guilty to manslaughter and there will be a trial next year...
Witchampton biplane crash: Pilot denies manslaughter - BBC News
Witchampton biplane crash: Pilot denies manslaughter - BBC News
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Back then, the Moth was "old", now they're virtually flying pieces of history - do we need to loop them at this stage in their vintage?
If they are maintained and monitored to appropriate standards and the pilots who aerobat them are trained to a suitable level, there is no reason why they should not.
By way of example, there was a recent Emergency Airworthiness Directive issued regarding wing tie rods which prohibited aerobatics until the necessary inspections were carried out. Following satisfactory inspections, aerobatics could be resumed.
A sensible and logical approach and the Moths are far from the only aircraft to have been subject to Emergency ADs over the years - some of them being much more modern types. I regularly fly another type which was subject of a modification requirement and reduced G limitations as a result of an airworthiness directive. If the Moths needed more restrictive permanent limitations, I have absolutely no doubt the authorities would have insisted upon them.
Moderator
The discussion on this topic is welcomed. However, it is possible that this is not the right time. There will be a right time for discussion to continue, and, be it later today, or end of a trial, I, or another PPRuNe mod, will return here to state that.
I won't lock this thread, as PPRuNe would like it to continue, but would posters please hold their thoughts briefly...
Thanks, Pilot DAR
I won't lock this thread, as PPRuNe would like it to continue, but would posters please hold their thoughts briefly...
Thanks, Pilot DAR
Moderator
Pause please....
After some discussion today, the decision has been made that posts which relate to this accident should not be made during the period of legal proceedings. It is PPRuNe's hope that an interesting discussion may resume when legal issues are settled.
In the mean time, the thread will be left unlocked, to encourage future participation. If a poster has been informed that legal proceedings are complete, would they please PM myself or Saab Dastard, and one of us will confirm that the time is right to continue the thread, and post a "go!" on the thread.
Thanks for your understanding, freedom of speech is important, but a person's rights exceed that importance, in this context.
Pilot DAR
In the mean time, the thread will be left unlocked, to encourage future participation. If a poster has been informed that legal proceedings are complete, would they please PM myself or Saab Dastard, and one of us will confirm that the time is right to continue the thread, and post a "go!" on the thread.
Thanks for your understanding, freedom of speech is important, but a person's rights exceed that importance, in this context.
Pilot DAR
Tiger Moth Pilot Cleared after Fatal Accident
Following a 3-4 week trial, a Tiger Moth pilot has been cleared of manslaughter and endangering an aircraft (not to mention the first trial which had to be abandoned)
Tiger Moth pilot Scott Hoyle not guilty of manslaughter after fatal crash (From Bournemouth Echo)
The details of the trial have not been reported but I imagine the pilot put up a spirited defence (a total of 24 witnesses called and lots of legal submissions).
I wondered if any Ppruners might be able to provide more information or comment.
I hope that this result discourages the CPS from pursuing any other pilots who might find themselves in this unfortunate position. I hate to think what this trial cost.
Tiger Moth pilot Scott Hoyle not guilty of manslaughter after fatal crash (From Bournemouth Echo)
The details of the trial have not been reported but I imagine the pilot put up a spirited defence (a total of 24 witnesses called and lots of legal submissions).
I wondered if any Ppruners might be able to provide more information or comment.
I hope that this result discourages the CPS from pursuing any other pilots who might find themselves in this unfortunate position. I hate to think what this trial cost.