"Contact one", any one else say that?
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I was already aware of the incident. Still can't see what relevance or value it has to this thread.
Presumably you just raise it to have a pop at those with a military flying background. Never mind. Disregard any military angle on this discussion at all, and simply check the reference I provided from CAP413 which provides an official civil answer to the original question.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Page 249 of the PDF if that helps.
Presumably you just raise it to have a pop at those with a military flying background. Never mind. Disregard any military angle on this discussion at all, and simply check the reference I provided from CAP413 which provides an official civil answer to the original question.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Page 249 of the PDF if that helps.
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F3G, You must've got up on the wrong side of bed. The gentleman asks if a phrase is normal R/T. I give him a straight answer with a reference: 'may be understood but is technically incorrect'. Thanks for your input by the way.
Read it yourself.
Now find me "fly radar heading" in CAP413, please.
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While we're on the subject of RT I have to say I like the American way of communicating in the circuit by prefacing their calls with the aircraft type and then call-sign e.g. 'Cessna 172 G-ABCD (N123) left base 21'. This gives you a clue as to what to look for and some idea of the likely speed. I know this probably takes a millisecond more of air time and also requires some knowledge of aircraft types; but I like it!
Prefacing with type of aircraft is great, because not only does it inform your fellow pilots what aircraft to look for and what performance your likely to have, but it adds two more benefits: ATC can now separate visually by saying "you're number 2 after a Seneca on short final", rather than having to look that info up. Also, you can now (although not strictly correct), abbreviate by saying "Seneca turning base" etc in high workload airspace. It saves time. N- or G-numbers have very little use in spotting traffic.
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Now find me "fly radar heading" in CAP413, please.
...only pompous gits from ny background. (sic)
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Prefacing with type of aircraft is great, because not only does it inform your fellow pilots what aircraft to look for and what performance your likely to have, but it adds two more benefits: ATC can now separate visually by saying "you're number 2 after a Seneca on short final", rather than having to look that info up.
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is perfectly acceptable R/T and means what it says.
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I admit to using "Contact one on the runway" (in the hope of getting a land after clearance at an ATC field) and also (horror of horrors) using "rolling" when commencing the take off run at some yokel strip where I may consider that the locals don't have a clue what is happening and might just decide to blunder on to the runway just as I reach 60 knots. I very much agree with using aircraft type identification whilst in the air, and at busy fly-ins I also often use aircraft colour to help A/G, FIS or ATC with visual identification when taxying.
Contact has (or at least, use to have) at least 3 different meanings in the military flying world:
1. "Contact left 5 deg, 20 miles, 1000ft above" = I have traffic on radar (as stated).
2. "Contact Neatishead on TAD 123" = Call that GCI controller on (whatever UHF frequency Tactical Air Designator 123 decodes as). Although I thiink that was eventually changed from "contact" to "call".
3. "Contact, grid 123456" = there's a firefight at (wherever 123456 is).
And as for 'secure'..... "Secure the building" to a pongo means smash the door down, check the rooms are clear of hostiles. To a fishead it means lock the building up and b*gger off for the weekend. To the RAF it probably means make sure that we have the use of the building.
1. "Contact left 5 deg, 20 miles, 1000ft above" = I have traffic on radar (as stated).
2. "Contact Neatishead on TAD 123" = Call that GCI controller on (whatever UHF frequency Tactical Air Designator 123 decodes as). Although I thiink that was eventually changed from "contact" to "call".
3. "Contact, grid 123456" = there's a firefight at (wherever 123456 is).
And as for 'secure'..... "Secure the building" to a pongo means smash the door down, check the rooms are clear of hostiles. To a fishead it means lock the building up and b*gger off for the weekend. To the RAF it probably means make sure that we have the use of the building.
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OT
And as for 'secure'..... "Secure the building" to a pongo means smash the door down, check the rooms are clear of hostiles. To a fishead it means lock the building up and b*gger off for the weekend. To the RAF it probably means make sure that we have the use of the building.
Last edited by WelshHopper; 12th Apr 2011 at 06:12. Reason: I'm a typing tool
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Annex 10
See UK AIP GEN 1.7
In the UK, the name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of the aircraft model, or name of the aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to the callsign.
See UK AIP GEN 1.7
In the UK, the name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of the aircraft model, or name of the aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to the callsign.
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Quote:
is perfectly acceptable R/T and means what it says.
No it isn't. Contact means precisely that - contact the one ahead ie: call the one ahead. Aircraft changing frequency to another ATZ/FIR are usually told "Contact (eg)Scottish on ..." Use of the word "contact" to convey anything else is grossly misleading.
is perfectly acceptable R/T and means what it says.
No it isn't. Contact means precisely that - contact the one ahead ie: call the one ahead. Aircraft changing frequency to another ATZ/FIR are usually told "Contact (eg)Scottish on ..." Use of the word "contact" to convey anything else is grossly misleading.
Have to say I was so use to hearing and being taught to say 'contact 1 ahead' in the circuit that the scenario of a solo student pilot, in front getting very confused by 'contact 1 ahead' had not occurred to me.
Having said that is it really confusing? The call does not originate from a ground operator, G-XX contact 1 ahead' originates from another aircraft so, surely cannot be misconstrued as meaning 'aircraft ahead of me contact (call) the 1 ahead of you' which is an instruction and could only originate from an ATC unit. In fact someone who didn't understand it wouldn't even know they are the 'contact' being referred to. (Unless the receiving station misheard the G-XX as their own callsign - which is a another argument for another day!)
Perhaps a strong case for the CAA to clarify 'contact 1 ahead' in CAP 413, either that it is an alternative meaning for 'contact' as no ambiguity exists, or a statement that the wording should not be used in this context. It's clearly a topic that is causing some polarisation here on PPruNe and clearly the term is in common use in the context of 'visual contact with another aircraft in the circuit'.
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F3G, You must've got up on the wrong side of bed. The gentleman asks if a phrase is normal R/T. I give him a straight answer with a reference: 'may be understood but is technically incorrect'. Thanks for your input by the way.
Quote:
Now find me "fly radar heading" in CAP413, please.
Read it yourself.
Quote:
Now find me "fly radar heading" in CAP413, please.
Read it yourself.
PS Ex Mil myself so save that pompous response as well please.
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Contact has (or at least, use to have) at least 3 different meanings in the military flying world:
1. "Contact left 5 deg, 20 miles, 1000ft above" = I have traffic on radar (as stated).
2. "Contact Neatishead on TAD 123" = Call that GCI controller on (whatever UHF frequency Tactical Air Designator 123 decodes as). Although I thiink that was eventually changed from "contact" to "call".
3. "Contact, grid 123456" = there's a firefight at (wherever 123456 is).
And as for 'secure'..... "Secure the building" to a pongo means smash the door down, check the rooms are clear of hostiles. To a fishead it means lock the building up and b*gger off for the weekend. To the RAF it probably means make sure that we have the use of the building.
1. "Contact left 5 deg, 20 miles, 1000ft above" = I have traffic on radar (as stated).
2. "Contact Neatishead on TAD 123" = Call that GCI controller on (whatever UHF frequency Tactical Air Designator 123 decodes as). Although I thiink that was eventually changed from "contact" to "call".
3. "Contact, grid 123456" = there's a firefight at (wherever 123456 is).
And as for 'secure'..... "Secure the building" to a pongo means smash the door down, check the rooms are clear of hostiles. To a fishead it means lock the building up and b*gger off for the weekend. To the RAF it probably means make sure that we have the use of the building.
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It's also better to hear than 'Rolling' which really does annoy me 
'Rolling' is not actually in CAP413. According to CAP413 you should say 'taking off, G-CD' if at an A/G or FIS field. The only other time you should say the words 'take off' is when reading back a take off clearance from ATC. Before then we only say 'ready for departure'.
However, I was told off once by an instructor for saying 'Taking Off' at an A/G field, he told me to just say 'Rolling'. Saying 'Taking Off' seems clearer to me because it is informing everyone what you are doing without any ambiguity.
Although, I must admit that since I was told off...I actually just say 'rolling' now
.
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I occasionally use "rolling" too. In the situation where I've been cleared for take-off, and having read back that clearance, but not able to go just yet for wake turbulence separation. (Intersection departures behind 737s are very common where I fly.) So I'm all lined up and cleared for take-off and when the wake turbulence wait periode is over, I call "rolling". I don't know what else to say, and a call like this seems to be appreciated by ATC anyway.
Technically I think I don't have to say anything though in that situation.
Technically I think I don't have to say anything though in that situation.
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We did the debate on rolling only very recently but by all means do it again.
In fact I will even contribute because I didnt understand then and dont understand now why rolling could possibly annoy anyone - you know exactly what it means so why the problem - and please take that as a genuine interested question.
In fact I will even contribute because I didnt understand then and dont understand now why rolling could possibly annoy anyone - you know exactly what it means so why the problem - and please take that as a genuine interested question.
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but not able to go just yet for wake turbulence separation. (Intersection departures behind 737s are very common where I fly.