why my instructor made a big deal of taking a photo at the runway?

[su2114]

hello..

i fly gliders...
and 3 days ago i was taking a photo with my friend at the threshold area of the runway after my instructor took off with another student ...
my instructor refused to fly with me that day and taxied to the hangar because he saw us while approaching standing on the runway

the airport is small with very light traffic and it is an unpowered glider plane......

I know what i did was wrong but is it that big deal????

[Adios]

You've answered your own question already, but an unpowered plane will smack you just as dead as a powered one if it hits you at 60 knots. Due to the lack of engine noise, you're much less likely to hear it coming though.

[Poltergeist]

Agreed Adios, but safety is about education and not letting you play with the trainset because you have erred does I would suggest, ask questions also of the instructor. Maybe instructing on safety may have been a better idea?
If taxying to hangar and packing up is the answer, how will that encourage 'just' culture open reporting in safety matters?

[RatherBeFlying]

Photographer Mortality on Airfields

A number of photogs have been killed on or near airfields -- some by props during low flying; some decapitated by glider wings. I have not heard specifically of anybody killed by a tow rope or cable.

Even worse many photogs put themselves in danger without arrangement beforehand with the pilot

It is something to discover a photog maybe 20' before the threshold, fortunately in a ditch. Remember your carb heat. it would not do to have your engine cough and award the photog a Darwin.

In Yellowstone, people regularly walk right up to bison to get a good picture -- and get killed.

[Maoraigh1]

40+ years ago I waved the baton for a winch launch, a dual instruction flight in a T31b, while wondering if an instructor, taking a photograph, was in a safe place. As he was an instructor, I assumed he was O.K.
The wing hit him on the forehead, (fortunately between wing ribs)
He survived, with no permanant damage, but it was several days later before he was fully aware of what was going on.

[Piltdown Man]

Change clubs, change instructor? You don't want to be at this place. Your instructor sounds like a complete knob. This is childish behaviour and besides, you are member who is entitled to instruction and the use of the club's amenities. If you had done something wrong, a sensible, mature person would have let you known the error of your ways, get you buy into the resolution and check some time in the future, if necessary, that the lesson had been learnt. And left it at that. That was not done.

PM

But I'd probably react in another immature way and **** the git behind bikeshed, so to speak.

[Zulu Alpha]

One of the problems with people on the ground when landing is that the pilot cannot be sure whether they have seen him and what they are going to do.

We have walkers near our strip and if they are walking on the edge of the strip you never know whether they are going to cross. Some have dogs and children and these are even more unpredictable.

So think of the pilot, coming in to land and having the extra distraction of wondering whether the person at the threshold is going to move or not. He might even not be able to tell who it is, so won't know if they are "sensible" or "stupid".

I suspect this is even more a problem for gliders.

[Sallyann1234]

I think the instructor was right. Immediately after such an incident the chances are that one or both of you would not be in the right frame of mind for instruction and learning. Much better to let you both calm down and start fresh another day.
Also there may have been other factors - but I won't speculate here.

[KKoran]

PM,

If you had done something wrong, a sensible, mature person would have let you known the error of your ways, get you buy into the resolution and check some time in the future, if necessary, that the lesson had been learnt.

You're acting like he was grounded for a month. His instructor didn't fly with him that day. Seems to me a reasonable way for his instructor to impress upon the student the seriousness of the issue (though, based on the student's post here, I don't think it did the trick).

I know what i did was wrong but is it that big deal????

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I think the instructor was right. Immediately after such an incident the chances are that one or both of you would not be in the right frame of mind for instruction and learning. Much better to let you both calm down and start fresh another day.

That's what I thought - anyone who's feeling even a bit wound up shouldn't go flying.

Instructors will know that. Students should learn it.

There are those who respond to pretty well every thread here with "find a different instructor". Sometimes this is not the right answer.

[jxc]

I Agree with Zulu Alpha but maybe that is as I from East Anglia as well

But I feel the instructor was well over the top just an explanation would probably have done and if the student was 100% sure if he/she was wrong they probably do now from posting on here

[thing]

I believe they stopped competition finishes after a photog was decapitated, they aren't allowed at my club anyway. I take it you are a fairly new pilot as the sort of thing you did should be covered in safety briefs etc. By the way, how did he taxi back to the hangar in a glider?

[FlyingKiwi_73]

You can taxi a glider it just takes a little finess! it was frowned apon a bit if students did it, but a few of my instructors did this to speed up recovery and getting back to the winch line. its all about energy management, not landing long and how far down the feild the 'Van' is.
Wouldn't chance my luck with the hangar tho....

I have been on finals and watched a 'visitor' to the club wlak across the active grass runway beck to the club house proper (loo break) i closed the air brakes and sailed happily over his head. no damage done as i had the room, it meant a long rertreval of course. I doubt the bloke saw me until i was on top of him. by the time i was back at the van the launch co-ordinator was alreay tearing strips of the chap.. i left him to it.

Nobody should be anywhere near an active runway (unless you have permission and know what you are doing,.. i.e where to look)

[B4aeros]

Nobody should be anywhere near an active runway (unless you have permission and know what you are doing,.. i.e where to look)

Absolutely right of course, but

tearing strips of the chap..

is inappropriate.

Education is so much more effective than punishment. GA needs top recognise that it is a leisure industry & should stop treating newcomers as six year old children.

Without knowing the OP or his airfield, it's hard to judge the severity of the incident, but the fact that he's here asking questions suggests that the lesson has not been learned.

Not an effective instructor.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

is inappropriate.
Education is so much more effective than punishment. GA needs top recognise that it is a leisure industry & should stop treating newcomers as six year old children.

Not as an excuse more explination, said controller was a arther un-apologetic aussie Ag pilot... a spades a spade etc. and he was explaining (in an animated fashion) to said pedestrian how close he came to a quiet whistling death.

[High-Flyer2]

"Without knowing the OP or his airfield, it's hard to judge the severity of the incident, but the fact that he's here asking questions suggests that the lesson has not been learned."


I wouldn't say that its the case of lesson not learned, if said instructor was ranting on and took the kind of "huffy" approach well then maybe nothing has been explained, yes its been recognised that wrong has been done but not explained to the full extent and reasons why, everyones got to learn at some point and some of us learn the hard way as been shown here

Paul

[Plasmech]

OP: Where *exactly* were you standing?

[ProfChrisReed]

To me the problem lies in the OP's closing words:

I know what i did was wrong but is it that big deal????

Scenario: early solo pilot is on approach and sees another student taking picture while standing on the runway threshold. Thinks, "They'll move in a moment." They don't move. Student pilot freezes for a few seconds wondering what to do. At the last moment self-preservation takes over, pulls up and stalls in from 50 ft. Dead or injured student pilot, destroyed aircraft.

Someone at my club who couldn't see the potentially big deal probably wouldn't be flying for a while.

Of course, this could just be a case of an instructor losing it after a long day, but the OP's attitude worries me.

[Piltdown Man]

What are you people taking?

There are a few issues here which need some illumination. Firstly, let's look at the most critical issue, the one of safety. I don't where su2114 was standing, but wherever he was standing he was noticed. But we don't even know if he was doing anything wrong because nobody spoke to him. What a safety system. Are we using telepathy as a form of instruction now? Yup, people standing in the "wrong place" can be a pain. But gliders have controls and if the hazard is stationary or at least moving in a predictable fashion, it should be avoidable. So seeing this, the job of the instructor is to educate, not throw their toys out of the cot. Which brings me onto the second point. In the civilian club world, club instructors should be stable, balanced people who are also of capable helping a person seeing the error of their ways. Their job is to lead by inspiration and example. But this guy is sadly lacking in these two departments (maybe amongst others). It makes you wonder what sort of instructor they are as well. And this sort of childish behaviour appears not to be limited just to this club, as another poster has wrote:

...the launch co-ordinator was alreay tearing strips of the chap

If they were allowed to use corporal punishment, would he have hit him with big stick as well? Just what gets into people at gliding/flying clubs?

Much better to let you both calm down and start fresh another day.

To a point I agree but what is there to get so wound up about? It's not the army or the airforce. This is flying, not fighting. This is done for fun and enjoyment. Don't lose focus. Yes, every now and again something abnormal occurs. So as an instructor, your job is to sort it out. As the meerkat says, "Simple Peeps!"

Next, this is a club. As a member you pay to use the club's facilities. Who is an instructor to deny a member the use of their own facilities?

You have to be kidding me...

...early solo pilot is on approach and sees another student taking picture while standing on the runway threshold.

So early solo pilot closes airbrakes and misses obstruction and lands further down the airfield. If this action/technique has not been taught, early solo pilot's instructor hasn't done their job. And if they can't manage that, early solo pilot shouldn't be solo. Such a manoeuvre is standard aviation practice, especially in a glider.

Regarding competition finishes:

they aren't allowed at my club anyway.

I hated going to competitions where those who flew from clubs who banned anything which could be considered fun (like formation flying, aeros, beat-ups, low level hill soaring/racing, cloud flying, mountain flying etc.) had their first taste of adventure. How they managed not to kill themselves I'll never know, but it was "interesting" to see how close they could get to stoofing in but not actually do so. Like all types of manoeuvre, this one should be taught and practiced at the appropriate time and in the appropriate place.

I fly for a living and we aren't that serious. If someone does something out of the ordinary or you have any sort of problem, you deal with it. You don't go around shouting at people. If it's a safety problem, you try and discuss it (and do the inevitable paperwork) to stop the problem from reoccurring immediately. But what we do is enjoy ourselves at work whilst getting the job done to the very best of our abilities. But if I went gliding on my days off I'd hope and fully expect to have even more fun and enjoyment. I'm sure I'd get things wrong and I'd hope that I was treated with respect and that my errors were explained. Not doing so would do neither of us any favours and would do nothing for safety, which is where we started isn't it?

PM

Who used to go gliding (1,200hrs or so and a few diamonds) at the LGC many years ago. Has one less landing than take off and who also used to instruct. Quite badly at times, but I learnt eventually. I just wish I had the time to do some now.

[astir 8]

An alternative scenario:- an early solo pilot has screwed up and is low, slow and already has the airbrakes shut on the approach.

The pilot sees someone standing on or near the landing area and doesn't know whether the said person has even seen the approaching glider, or what he is going to do (duck or move and in what direction).

It's very very dangerous for both parties - the pilot could try turning or stretching an already overstretched glide even further with nasty results.

Alternatively he hits the spectator who is looking through his camera viewfinder and failed to appreciate how close the glider is.

Having people standing around the undershoot area on any airfield and especially a glider site is totally unacceptable.

And has Mr SU2112 (the original complainant) any previous form for stupidity for which he has already been reprimanded - and the reprimands have simply bounced off? The statement "I know what I did was wrong, but what was the big deal" seems a bit telling.

Or maybe the instructor had just been having a crap day, with his wife bitching about his having to go and instruct yet again - and all unpaid and voluntary.

I would really like to hear the instructor's version of this story before criticising.