Apparent brake failure!! Do you take off??
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Apparent brake failure!! Do you take off??
Hi flying folks,
before people hammer me, this thread has nothing to do with STOL runways, where you need to touch down and slam the brakes in order to avoid making the local newspaper.
I´m referring to the following situation:
My 1st solo…….my instructor thought I was good to go for it.
Pre-flight checks, flashing up the donk, an all-system check etc etc.
Moving towards the threshold when---> I noticed the brake didn´t work anymore!
I shut down, no way I was gonna solo without brakes although that runway gave me plenty of leeway! (1 of the reasons why I soloed there first).
It turned out to be an easy fix and after some "arcing and sparking", well; off I went, and the rest is history!
But what I´m trying to ask is: how essential are the brakes for where you people fly?
I met a few people who claim to fly without………..no sweat!
Is it a "no T/O" item?
Your thoughts? If you´re far away from your destination, trying to get home before dusk……….for instance--> would you cheekily ignore a brake failure?
Cheers,
###Ultra Long Hauler###
before people hammer me, this thread has nothing to do with STOL runways, where you need to touch down and slam the brakes in order to avoid making the local newspaper.
I´m referring to the following situation:
My 1st solo…….my instructor thought I was good to go for it.
Pre-flight checks, flashing up the donk, an all-system check etc etc.
Moving towards the threshold when---> I noticed the brake didn´t work anymore!
I shut down, no way I was gonna solo without brakes although that runway gave me plenty of leeway! (1 of the reasons why I soloed there first).
It turned out to be an easy fix and after some "arcing and sparking", well; off I went, and the rest is history!
But what I´m trying to ask is: how essential are the brakes for where you people fly?
I met a few people who claim to fly without………..no sweat!
Is it a "no T/O" item?
Your thoughts? If you´re far away from your destination, trying to get home before dusk……….for instance--> would you cheekily ignore a brake failure?
Cheers,
###Ultra Long Hauler###
Nope. Brakes are a vital item.
The situation could easily arise where you find yourself compelled to land at an aerodrome where you might need 'em.
Or just prior to rotate on your initial departure, something goes wrong requiring an abort.
Depends somewhat on the type, though. You can get away without the brakes working on a Tiger Moth.
The situation could easily arise where you find yourself compelled to land at an aerodrome where you might need 'em.
Or just prior to rotate on your initial departure, something goes wrong requiring an abort.
Depends somewhat on the type, though. You can get away without the brakes working on a Tiger Moth.
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Where I fly, brakes are very important, and absolutely necessary. However, no matter what you fly, the brakes are installed for a reason. If you operate the airplane properly, you should seldom need to use the brakes, especially during ground operations. Judicious use of power and planning means that you don't roar up to anything and rely upon brakes; you slow down, and use power to move, not brakes to slow or stop.
There may be times when you need brakes (certainly often the case when making a turn in a conventional gear airplane), and it's hard to do a run-up while holding short or holding in position on the runway, without brakes. You may find that you need brakes; simply because a normal taxi may not require them doesn't mean you won't need them.
A couple of years ago a wheel failed while I was landing in a light twin. The airplane very much wanted to turn left as the wheel attempted to leave the airplane. Full right rudder didn't help much; it required nearly full right brake to hold the airplane on the runway. Again, you never know when you'll need it. You made the correct decision to return to the hangar and get help.
There may be times when you need brakes (certainly often the case when making a turn in a conventional gear airplane), and it's hard to do a run-up while holding short or holding in position on the runway, without brakes. You may find that you need brakes; simply because a normal taxi may not require them doesn't mean you won't need them.
A couple of years ago a wheel failed while I was landing in a light twin. The airplane very much wanted to turn left as the wheel attempted to leave the airplane. Full right rudder didn't help much; it required nearly full right brake to hold the airplane on the runway. Again, you never know when you'll need it. You made the correct decision to return to the hangar and get help.
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If I landed in the beginning of the runway I wouldn't roll to the end of it... that's where I started flying. We had 2500 metres of pavement. Despite that, I would never go flying without proper brakes. In fact, where I work as an instructor now I regularly squawk our planes for poor/worn brakes. Just doesn't feel right without instant hard grip. They are quite vital, whether the runway is long or short. So much things can go wrong, especially during taxy at busy fields. In my humble opinion........
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Obviously none of you are familiar with flying the Tiger Moth 
Brakes are a luxury, not a necessity, in general aviation. Enough forward planning removes the immediate need for the them.
Brakes are a luxury, not a necessity, in general aviation. Enough forward planning removes the immediate need for the them.
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Brakes are a luxury, not a necessity, in general aviation. Enough forward planning removes the immediate need for the them.
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Enough forward planning removes the immediate need for the them.
No brakes, no way I'd fly. Or even attempt to taxi.
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Interesting thread. Would any of the people who are on the “have to have working brakes” side of this consider flying one of the many types with no brakes fitted at all? How about a type, which normally has no brakes, but the particular example you are about to fly has optional brakes fitted but inoperative? Brakes are not a requirement for safe flight, but the lack of them is something to consider before committing to aviation.
Rod1
Rod1
I agree with Rod that:
but I'd ask whether there's really a need to get airborne with a known unservicability when it might be a quick fix.
You never know what might happen and while take-offs are optional landings are mandatory.
Brakes are not a requirement for safe flight, but the lack of them is something to consider before committing to aviation.
You never know what might happen and while take-offs are optional landings are mandatory.
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Guess it all has to do with what aircraft you're piloting. I would not try to land a PC on rwy 35 at FAGC as the slope is northwards. If I knew I did not have brakes and had to land there, I would use a precautionary approach with full flaps and as slow as safely possible.
ZS-FOY was my late father's PA-28R.
ZS-FOY was my late father's PA-28R.
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If it's an informed choice, with preparation, no brakes is not a problem. You can do power checks on chocks, and after landing and taxi just point somewhere safe and cut the power to stop.
If you're just about to line up and find the brakes inop, i think you definitely made the right decision not to fly. It would be playing on your mind on landing, and really not what you want on first solo.
If you're just about to line up and find the brakes inop, i think you definitely made the right decision not to fly. It would be playing on your mind on landing, and really not what you want on first solo.
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No doubt numerous of us are aware of Tiger Moths.
However the OP was about to go early/first solo in an a/c that he expected to be fully serviceable, brakes included, which is a different can of worms. Had he been learning on a Tiger Moth then he would have been taught to fly/land apropriately.
Home being grass, my brakes are not very good anyway, Yes.
However the OP was about to go early/first solo in an a/c that he expected to be fully serviceable, brakes included, which is a different can of worms. Had he been learning on a Tiger Moth then he would have been taught to fly/land apropriately.
Your thoughts? If you´re far away from your destination, trying to get home before dusk……….for instance--> would you cheekily ignore a brake failure?
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And clearly none of you have much Auster time where they are renowned for failing without notice! I always plan to land an Auster without brakes as there worst habit is failing on just one side usually after a long taxi. You get airborne not realizing that they have cooked on he taxi out and you have nothing left for the landing!
Like everything in aviation, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Some situation and aircraft may require brakes. Others there is no need at all. Assess each situation individually and make a decision at the time.
Like everything in aviation, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Some situation and aircraft may require brakes. Others there is no need at all. Assess each situation individually and make a decision at the time.
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No, I don't think it's a "no take off" item at all. Providing you can taxi safely to holding point and stop unless immediately cleared for T/O, you should be fine. I did a solo in a C150 where the ASI was dysfunctional on T/O. I aborted, checked the venturi, a bit of dust, cleared, took off. No problems thereafter. It's the landing that one has to worry about no brakes.
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ULH,
At your stage, especially on your first solo, choosing NOT to fly was absolutely correct. With a bit more time and experience behind you you will be better able to exercise judgement on matters like this, but even then, if you are at your home base airfield there wouldn't be many compelling reasons to take to the air with a known defect like this.
As others have said, a lot comes down to the aircraft type. My own aeroplane is a (permit to fly) light tailwheeler with heel brakes which are generally only used during the engine run up, but are sometimes need to turn when taxying in strong winds. I was once away from base about to fly back to home when one of the brakes failed on taxy out. I taxied back, shut down and investigated. Suffice to stay that after a lot of consideration and detailed planning, I flew back with one brake inop, to base where I could get the snag rectified. It was not a decision taken lightly and this was one of the few occasions when I would carry a defect like this. At the other end of the scale, in my work aeroplane, you probably wouldn't even remove the chocks with a single brake failure!
On this note, on GA types which do not have a Minimum Equipment List, is there any guidance as to what snags you can legally accept and which ones will ground you - or does it simply come down to individual judgement, airmanship and common sense?
At your stage, especially on your first solo, choosing NOT to fly was absolutely correct. With a bit more time and experience behind you you will be better able to exercise judgement on matters like this, but even then, if you are at your home base airfield there wouldn't be many compelling reasons to take to the air with a known defect like this.
As others have said, a lot comes down to the aircraft type. My own aeroplane is a (permit to fly) light tailwheeler with heel brakes which are generally only used during the engine run up, but are sometimes need to turn when taxying in strong winds. I was once away from base about to fly back to home when one of the brakes failed on taxy out. I taxied back, shut down and investigated. Suffice to stay that after a lot of consideration and detailed planning, I flew back with one brake inop, to base where I could get the snag rectified. It was not a decision taken lightly and this was one of the few occasions when I would carry a defect like this. At the other end of the scale, in my work aeroplane, you probably wouldn't even remove the chocks with a single brake failure!
On this note, on GA types which do not have a Minimum Equipment List, is there any guidance as to what snags you can legally accept and which ones will ground you - or does it simply come down to individual judgement, airmanship and common sense?
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The thing to think about is what else is gone.
If you are presented a plane with duff brakes, and they know about it and expect you to fly it, do you think it's had gold plated maintenance on everything (or anything) else?
The chances are it is owned by a total cowboy outfit which gets maintenance done "on the nod" i.e. just enough to function but obviously with all the boxes ticked and all the papers stamped as always.
Unfortunately, you don't need to read many accident reports, literally or between the lines, to realise that in aviation crap attitudes to risk go hand in hand with a whole lot of other dodgy stuff. So e.g. the plane might not be insured...
If youa re not happy, take a walk somewhere else. There are schools out there with decent planes and decent attitudes. Not many but there are some. I walked out of a school over dodgy maintenance practices during my PPL training, too.
Maintenance is no rocket science. You don't need to even read or write to be able to fix brakes on a common type of aircraft.
If you are presented a plane with duff brakes, and they know about it and expect you to fly it, do you think it's had gold plated maintenance on everything (or anything) else?
The chances are it is owned by a total cowboy outfit which gets maintenance done "on the nod" i.e. just enough to function but obviously with all the boxes ticked and all the papers stamped as always.
Unfortunately, you don't need to read many accident reports, literally or between the lines, to realise that in aviation crap attitudes to risk go hand in hand with a whole lot of other dodgy stuff. So e.g. the plane might not be insured...
If youa re not happy, take a walk somewhere else. There are schools out there with decent planes and decent attitudes. Not many but there are some. I walked out of a school over dodgy maintenance practices during my PPL training, too.
Maintenance is no rocket science. You don't need to even read or write to be able to fix brakes on a common type of aircraft.
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Flying with a known brake failure is just taking another unneccesary risk - I wouldn't do it. Besides, break check is on the checklist of the airplanes I'm flying.
Finally a lot of modern planes such as Cirri & Diamonds don't have nose wheel steering, and during slow taxi / RPMs the rudder is sometimes ineffective for steering.
Finally a lot of modern planes such as Cirri & Diamonds don't have nose wheel steering, and during slow taxi / RPMs the rudder is sometimes ineffective for steering.
If an aircraft has been designed to have brakes, they're there for a reason. I'd get them checked out, because there is no point going flying with a known unserviceability that might be easily fixed.
An interesting thing happened to me last year; I was setting out on a night flight, and as we taxied out I checked the brakes. One was not working, so we returned, and took the other C172 instead. As we flew back at night along the coast, we suffered a partial engine failure; not enough power to keep height, but enough to vary the glide. Only one airport was in range; it had no lights and it was a cloudy night! We used the GPS on full zoom, and the altimeter, to land blind; and hit the centreline! However, we required maximum braking to stop or we'd have been in the swamp with the alligators.
You could argue that if we had taken the aircraft with a failed brake, we'd not have ended up in the one with the dodgy engine, of course; but in this entirely unexpected situation, the brakes rather came in handy.
An interesting thing happened to me last year; I was setting out on a night flight, and as we taxied out I checked the brakes. One was not working, so we returned, and took the other C172 instead. As we flew back at night along the coast, we suffered a partial engine failure; not enough power to keep height, but enough to vary the glide. Only one airport was in range; it had no lights and it was a cloudy night! We used the GPS on full zoom, and the altimeter, to land blind; and hit the centreline! However, we required maximum braking to stop or we'd have been in the swamp with the alligators.
You could argue that if we had taken the aircraft with a failed brake, we'd not have ended up in the one with the dodgy engine, of course; but in this entirely unexpected situation, the brakes rather came in handy.
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Its not a daft question to be honest. There are people who should know a whole heap more than you think you can.
I had a flights ops director telling me once to take a CAT aircraft with brake failure on one side and also the emergency brake system not working on that side as well (shuttle valve was jammed). And it was deemed ok because the runway we were going to was miles long.
I didn't go either
I had a flights ops director telling me once to take a CAT aircraft with brake failure on one side and also the emergency brake system not working on that side as well (shuttle valve was jammed). And it was deemed ok because the runway we were going to was miles long.
I didn't go either